Highly excessive water intake

[Chichireeo]

On the topic of liver health, has anyone used Lewerstim? I saw it in an online store. There are so many products out there.
As for the kidney, Dave I don't think it warrants a pessimistic outlook. Was thinking kidney infection, but then the antibiotics should have cleared it up? Hope you find an answer soon.

[DCbeachboy]

Thanks, Cindy and Cate. I just heard back from Laraine, and the avian vet she got in touch with seems to think he may have a "non-infectious pancreatic disorder". I have no idea what to make of this, but I'm assuming it doesn't sound good based only on the fact Laraine said she hopes I can save him. I'm waiting on a call back from my own vet at this point to discuss.

What has been others' experience here with pancreatic disorders? Is there any remedy?

[Chichireeo]

Oh, pancreas? Before you proceed, just to share with you cost information on the blood test my green singer had. It was about $150 for complete blood test. Maybe you want to ask your avian vet, or ask around?

[cindy]

Dave the pancreas helps control the sugar in the body.

this is the defination to it's functions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas
"The pancreas /ˈpæŋkriəs/ is a gland organ in the digestive and endocrine system of vertebrates. It is both an endocrine gland producing several important hormones, including insulin, glucagon, and somatostatin, and a digestive organ, secreting pancreatic juice containing digestive enzymes that assist the absorption of nutrients and the digestion in the small intestine. These enzymes help to further break down the carbohydrates, proteins, and lipids in the chyme."

I know with some dogs and cats that have issues with the pancreas with diet. Talk to you vet and see if their are things that you can do diet wise to improve his overall health.

[cindy]

http://books.google.com/books?id=yfe7M- ... &q&f=false

page 182 discusses the pancreas and disorder....this sounds like it fits his symptoms....polydypsia (excess thrist), voluminous droppings

It gives suggestions in regards to diet. It would be best to get guidelines in regards to food from your vet. There can be several causes for this, including toxins, fatty diet, viruses, neoplasia all of which you need to discuss with the vet to find the best way to treat your bird.

Please keep us posted.

[nixity]

If it was canker the other birds would be infected. This is a protozoan spread easily through contaminated shared drinking water.

[cindy]

Tiffany, from what information he got from Laraine and her vet contact it may be something to do with the pancreas, that would explain the thirst and droppings.

Agreed, if it was parasite or canker it would be seen in the others in the flock.

[nixity]

I'm not convinced it's pancreatic disease. This has been going on for 5+ weeks I would expect to see the bird visibly in distress by this point if he was suffering from organ failure.

There are a lot of benign things that can cause polyuria and one resource even mentioned that sulfa antibiotics can cause polyuria which - considering the antibiotics didn't help and I believe he said he seemed to get worse - would explain why.

I really would suggest removing all ad lib dietary items for a week or two and limiting his food to plain dry seed and water and see what happens.
If he was actually acting sick I would be much more frantic about the situation but as Dave has said he's been like this for over a month and his behavior/demeanor has not been afflicted.

Also - in the original description it was stated he would have watery droppings as well as normal droppings. The droppings changed after the administration of antibiotics which is consistent with what you'd expect if you administer antibiotics to a bird that doesn't have a bacterial infection - the dropping actually looked a bit yeasty to me and the description (being sticky, slightly green, etc) matches this as well.

So, basically, I'm wondering if we can perhaps try to isolate this to something dietary that perhaps he is just really sensitive to and the other birds aren't??

[cindy]

The books/section I posted (based on what Lariane said it sounded like) recommends diet change in some cases, as you are recommending Tiffany....it will be interesting to hear his vets take on this.

[DCbeachboy]

This is yet another example of Tiffany's wisdom in these matters. At her suggestion yesterday I removed all food items from their cage, so all he has access to for the next couple of weeks is plain, filtered water and plain seed (Birds R Us maintenance/resting blend). Nothing else -- no grit, no fresh greens, no eggfood, vitamins, millet, probiotics, milk thistle or other supplements. In a way, it's almost an austerity diet, I suppose -- at least compared with their usual daily diet.

I heard back today from my vet, and I explained the strict diet plan that my breeder had recommended in hopes of determining whether something in his diet suddenly is no longer agreeing with him (despite the fact he's been eating the same thing for well over a year). Her answer? "I LOVE that idea!" She heartily encouraged me to give this a try -- just in case diet is the culprit.

She agreed with Tiffany that she thinks his pancreas is just fine, as he isn't exhibiting any visible symptoms of such disease (no weight loss, no messy vent, no change in activity level, etc.). As Tiffany has said, the voluminous and slightly discolored droppings are not a complete surprise, given all the antibiotics and supplements he's been on....so that alone, combined with his extra water intake, isn't enough to diagnose pancreatic disorder, my vet said. Whew! That is a relief to hear....I was seriously beginning to wonder if my little guy was going to make it!

If his symptoms don't resolve after a week or two on this strict new diet, she said his problem is most likely hormonal -- either testosterone or stress hormones. He definitely has been stressed from lack of nesting ability, since I removed their nestbox more than 2 months ago. Both he and my hen frantically searched for the nest for many weeks afterward, but in recent weeks seem almost to have forgotten it. They still occasionally search, but not frantically as they had done. So maybe a surge in stress hormones is causing him to drink the extra water in order to purge the hormones, she explained. (Although this wouldn't seem to explain why he is drinking more and more water as time passes, and not less.)

Time will tell. First we'll give the diet plan a try. And if that doesn't work, I'll have to speed-up plans to separate him and his mate into separate cages -- a move I've been delaying for numerous reasons, but maybe that time is approaching, ready or not.

[Chichireeo]

Sounds good... I also simplify my bird's diet every time he seems off balance. For seeds, I reduce to strictly millet only. I mix my own because the packaged mixes may have grass seed, hemp, flax, nyjer, rape, although in small amounts, I cannot stop the bird from picking these out. When a bird is offered too much, he thinks he is in the land of plenty and becomes stimulated, long term, no rest. When simplifying diet, I monitor the poop amount to make sure he is eating enough and use a gram scale to weigh him.

[zuzana]

Hi, I have a same problem with my hen, than you described with your male. Excessive water intake and polyuria- excessive water in her droppings, otherwise happy and eating well. Have your bird recover from the condition? My suspicion is kidney damage/disease.

[DCbeachboy]

Hi, I have a same problem with my hen, than you described with your male. Excessive water intake and polyuria- excessive water in her droppings, otherwise happy and eating well. Have your bird recover from the condition? My suspicion is kidney damage/disease.

No. Although his condition is not as bad now as it was for a while, he unfortunately is still drinking excessive amounts of water -- many times more than any of my other birds -- and his droppings continue to be often watery. He also almost always looks down as he is releasing his droppings, and very often will shake his tail somewhat before or after the dropping -- neither of which he used to do.

But otherwise he seems completely healthy and happy in every regard, and sings frequently throughout the day. The diet change doesn't seem to have made a really notable difference. It may have helped stabilize the condition somewhat and prevent it from worsening, who knows? But as best I can tell, he does not seem to be suffering in any way -- so that's all that matters to me.

Best of luck with your hen. I hope it's nothing serious, and that whatever it is, it's something she can learn to live with -- as my male seems to have done.

[zuzana]

Thank you for your prompt reply, I am very glad your male is still doing well and learned to live with the condition. I read this topic here all way through and all symptoms of your bird fits mine too. She often looks between her legs as she seems to be wondering what's going on in her belly ;o) But otherwise she is happy, social and very active. Hope she will be doing OK for the future. thank you again for your reply -- very much appreciated.

Zuzana