Listerine and/or Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV)?

[cindy]

Thanks Donna....talk later!!

[CandoAviary]

Yiou can buy it from Bill, the fellow that taught us about this product. He uses it at Save the Gouldian project also
Here is Bill's site: http://www.fabulousfinch.com/cart/catal ... -11-1.html

[dfcauley]

Cindy.... you can check, but I don't think he sells it anymore.
When I ordered it he was changing alot of things and discontinuing things and I am sure this was one of those things. I will look when I get home today.

[cindy]

I can email him, spoken with him via email a few times prior. Thank you Donna.

[CandoAviary]

I didn't realize that Vikron S contained chlorine.

[cindy]

I may call my avian vet and ask what they use and if they can get the Virkon S for me or if my daughter's vet/work office can order it for me.

[nixity]

I hadn't been paying any attention to any of the other posts until somehow I saw my name on the first page of this thread which got me a little interested wondering - why the heck am I being brought into a debate I had nothing to do with?

First of all - just because someone has been doing something "this way" for 100 years doesn't mean it's the "right" way, nor does it mean it is the "wrong" way, but it also certainly doesn't mean it's the "only" way or the "best" way.

I know of many "old time expert" breeders that in the "old day" used to fill a paper bag with Seven Dust insecticide, throw a bird inside and let them "flap around" as a treatment for mites. It was called the "shake and bake" treatment, and evidently some of these old-time breeders still do this today.
Does it work? Evidently!

Is it the safest, best way to treat mites?
I think not.

With time, industries develop things called "best practices" and I don't think animal husbandry is any different. Someone somewhere obviously took advantage of the history of the use of Listerine to develop a product specifically for avian use that would offer a similar benefit in terms of "water disinfectant"... or whatever.

So, should it matter if Person A chooses to shake and bake their birds and Person B chooses to use an alternative method?

Everyone here questions why 1 drop in 8 ounces of water would be harmful, and I'm sitting here thinking - right, well, if 1 drop in 8 ounces of water dilution rate is effective at eliminating any sort of bacteria from water, then why do we gargle it undiluted when gargling it undiluted doesn't eliminate 100% even?
And who came up with that dilution?

I.e., I would really question whether 1 drop in 8 ounces of water is doing much of anything (in the digestive tract of the bird AND in the water itself) other than something anecdotal. And if there's nothing scientific supporting it, then frankly, that's what it is - anecdotal.

So - this is why I don't fault Cindy for suggesting that perhaps people can use something manufactured specifically for birds that way some of this guess work is eliminated (for the skeptical bird keeper, like me!).

Frankly I do not believe that Sparkle or ACV eliminates bacteria from drinking water, and I don't think that dilution of Listerine would, either.

But I'm trying to determine why you would need to do this in the first place? Is the tap water so disgusting that you're offering that you need to use an antiseptic in it first before giving it??

I think I would switch to bottled water first, or at least some kind of filtration method, but that's just me.
Then again I also don't believe in the whole "prevent exposure to any and all pathogens whatsoever!" attitude in order to produce these overly delicate birds that then cannot survive in a non-anal-retentive household.

Sparkle is designed to help prevent overgrowth of bacteria or algae and IMO it is not as effective after about 2-3 days.

I have used Sparkle, ACV, Grapefruit Seed Extract and Virkon-S all for sprouting and the only one that I think does absolutely anything is the Virkon-S.
The others all still resulted in nasty brown slime on the glass jars during the sprouting period, whereas with Virkon they stay crystal clear - so something is fishy there.

Frankly, if I'm feeding my birds un-rinsed seed soaked in Virkon it's obvious here that I'm not suggesting the use of Listerine as "harmful."

I just wonder what's the point, period.

[cindy]

The one way to properly tell if something is actually effective in killing bacteria is to do a very controlled study (temperature, length of time etc), as I stated earlier examining well, tap, bottled and filtered water...a group minus the "additive" and one with....staining, high magnifictions and the use of properly prepared petri dishes can be used to study whether bacteria is still present in these water samples that have been treated.

Personally I would like to know more about Virkon...Tiffany I found your information on another thread interesting how you rotate what you do with your birds' water. I do not use ACV daily but every other day or not at all depending on my schedule.

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18424

As you said above I am more in favor of using something designed specifically for birds. Human products often should not be used on pets, birds are more sensitive. If you are "creating" a sterile environment in the water, the bird ingesting this daily (and this includes the ingredients within the additive (Listerine)) does it make sense that it could possibly be doing some sort of damage/effecting to the digestive tract and natural flora). It is an antiseptic. I have not seen/found any concrete proof in regards to it controlling bacteria growth in a birds water cup (in a diluted form).

By the way I know a few that still use the "Shake and Bake" method...we are not suppose to breathe the stuff in...poor birds!

Also years ago people put dead fish in aviaries, flies laid their eggs on it and the maggots provided food for the young....think I'll pass on that one.

[CandoAviary]

I just wonder what's the point, period.

Exactly. This topic was broken off and started here from this original topic thread about a sick canary... which is now locked. Rour had a problem with his canary and sought help way back on Feb. 14th. When Dean joined a month later and answered it seems like people were then interested in the listerine... not so much about the canary's health.
http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 86&start=0

If you are referring to my post about me referring people to you or Lorraine for the morning bird product, sparkle, then I apologize. I have been referring people to your site to help support your business for a few years...oops. Sorry.

[Rour]

I just wonder what's the point, period.

Exactly. This topic was broken off and started here from this original topic thread about a sick canary... which is now locked. Rour had a problem with his canary and sought help way back on Feb. 14th. When Dean joined a month later and answered it seems like people were then interested in the listerine... not so much about the canary's health.
http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 86&start=0

If you are referring to my post about me referring people to you or Lorraine for the morning bird product, sparkle, then I apologize. I have been referring people to your site to help support your business for a few years...oops. Sorry.

Rour (my nickname) is short for Roula - I'm a she, not a he! lol

[CandoAviary]

Rour (my nickname) is short for Roula - I'm a she, not a he! lol

Sorry... it's not the first time I got gender and name confused.
How's the canary today?

[Rour]

The one way to properly tell if something is actually effective in killing bacteria is to do a very controlled study (temperature, length of time etc), as I stated earlier examining well, tap, bottled and filtered water...a group minus the "additive" and one with....staining, high magnifictions and the use of properly prepared petri dishes can be used to study whether bacteria is still present in these water samples that have been treated.

Personally I would like to know more about Virkon...Tiffany I found your information on another thread interesting how you rotate what you do with your birds' water. I do not use ACV daily but every other day or not at all depending on my schedule.

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18424

As you said above I am more in favor of using something designed specifically for birds. Human products often should not be used on pets, birds are more sensitive. If you are "creating" a sterile environment in the water, the bird ingesting this daily (and this includes the ingredients within the additive (Listerine)) does it make sense that it could possibly be doing some sort of damage/effecting to the digestive tract and natural flora). It is an antiseptic. I have not seen/found any concrete proof in regards to it controlling bacteria growth in a birds water cup (in a diluted form).

By the way I know a few that still use the "Shake and Bake" method...we are not suppose to breathe the stuff in...poor birds!

Also years ago people put dead fish in aviaries, flies laid their eggs on it and the maggots provided food for the young....think I'll pass on that one.

Cindy, there's a device called a "Digital Water Purity Tester" that you might use. We use to test our water (basically to know when to change the filter). It's very accurate, and it gives you a good indication of levels of TDS (total dissolved solids), metals, minerals, and inorganic substances, as well as harmful contaminants such as asbestos, lead, mercury, etc. We use the Intellitec brand. Generally, our tap water is pretty clean, our filtered water even better, so I don't tear my hair out agonizing if I gave the birds tap water or filtered water.
Roula

[Rour]

Rour (my nickname) is short for Roula - I'm a she, not a he! lol

Sorry... it's not the first time I got gender and name confused.
How's the canary today?

She's not shivering, and no additional feather loss (that I can see, anyway). I've ordered the D3. I'm wondering though, if it turns out to be a parasite, are there any other symptoms to look out for?

[cindy]

The one way to properly tell if something is actually effective in killing bacteria is to do a very controlled study (temperature, length of time etc), as I stated earlier examining well, tap, bottled and filtered water...a group minus the "additive" and one with....staining, high magnifictions and the use of properly prepared petri dishes can be used to study whether bacteria is still present in these water samples that have been treated.

Personally I would like to know more about Virkon...Tiffany I found your information on another thread interesting how you rotate what you do with your birds' water. I do not use ACV daily but every other day or not at all depending on my schedule.

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18424

As you said above I am more in favor of using something designed specifically for birds. Human products often should not be used on pets, birds are more sensitive. If you are "creating" a sterile environment in the water, the bird ingesting this daily (and this includes the ingredients within the additive (Listerine)) does it make sense that it could possibly be doing some sort of damage/effecting to the digestive tract and natural flora). It is an antiseptic. I have not seen/found any concrete proof in regards to it controlling bacteria growth in a birds water cup (in a diluted form).

By the way I know a few that still use the "Shake and Bake" method...we are not suppose to breathe the stuff in...poor birds!

Also years ago people put dead fish in aviaries, flies laid their eggs on it and the maggots provided food for the young....think I'll pass on that one.

Cindy, there's a device called a "Digital Water Purity Tester" that you might use. We use to test our water (basically to know when to change the filter). It's very accurate, and it gives you a good indication of levels of TDS (total dissolved solids), metals, minerals, and inorganic substances, as well as harmful contaminants such as asbestos, lead, mercury, etc. We use the Intellitec brand. Generally, our tap water is pretty clean, our filtered water even better, so I don't tear my hair out agonizing if I gave the birds tap water or filtered water.
Roula

Roula, we have a the GE Smartwater dual filter for tap water. I may look into getting the DWP tester you are speaking of. I would like to know the levels metal minerals, lead etc. I did run our water by our avian vet and the filter we use. I asked her if I need to add anything to the birds' water...she said no, as long as it is filtered as we are doing it should be fine.

[nixity]

If you are referring to my post about me referring people to you or Lorraine for the morning bird product, sparkle, then I apologize. I have been referring people to your site to help support your business for a few years...oops. Sorry.

That's not what I meant!! - I just meant that when I came on this thread (it was linked through another thread I posted on) and it was quoted from the prior thread with my name involved I didn't really know what the back story was or why I was mentioned.

If you take the post on this first page just for what it is, it can be interpreted as somewhat negative, (without the backlog/context, it can come across suggesting I'm selling some kind of horrible products that you try to tell people not to use, otherwise you direct them to mine or Laraine's site!) so I had to go back through the old sick canary posts to figure out what the actual intent/tone was supposed to be. I realized it was NOT negative in any way, but of course after reading that whole thread and then this one I was like.. HOLY MOLY...

LOL