Listerine and/or Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV)?

[CandoAviary]

LOL yes Tiffany, ... it did get split by the moderator on a weird note without a link to the post it was branched off from but the first post went every which way so it all was kind of hard to follow. I was like oh crap... here I was trying to do good and damned if somehow I messed up again. No worries...

[The canary man]

I hadn't been paying any attention to any of the other posts until somehow I saw my name on the first page of this thread which got me a little interested wondering - why the heck am I being brought into a debate I had nothing to do with?

First of all - just because someone has been doing something "this way" for 100 years doesn't mean it's the "right" way, nor does it mean it is the "wrong" way, but it also certainly doesn't mean it's the "only" way or the "best" way.

I know of many "old time expert" breeders that in the "old day" used to fill a paper bag with Seven Dust insecticide, throw a bird inside and let them "flap around" as a treatment for mites. It was called the "shake and bake" treatment, and evidently some of these old-time breeders still do this today.
Does it work? Evidently!

Is it the safest, best way to treat mites?
I think not.

With time, industries develop things called "best practices" and I don't think animal husbandry is any different. Someone somewhere obviously took advantage of the history of the use of Listerine to develop a product specifically for avian use that would offer a similar benefit in terms of "water disinfectant"... or whatever.

So, should it matter if Person A chooses to shake and bake their birds and Person B chooses to use an alternative method?

Everyone here questions why 1 drop in 8 ounces of water would be harmful, and I'm sitting here thinking - right, well, if 1 drop in 8 ounces of water dilution rate is effective at eliminating any sort of bacteria from water, then why do we gargle it undiluted when gargling it undiluted doesn't eliminate 100% even?
And who came up with that dilution?

I.e., I would really question whether 1 drop in 8 ounces of water is doing much of anything (in the digestive tract of the bird AND in the water itself) other than something anecdotal. And if there's nothing scientific supporting it, then frankly, that's what it is - anecdotal.

So - this is why I don't fault Cindy for suggesting that perhaps people can use something manufactured specifically for birds that way some of this guess work is eliminated (for the skeptical bird keeper, like me!).

Frankly I do not believe that Sparkle or ACV eliminates bacteria from drinking water, and I don't think that dilution of Listerine would, either.

But I'm trying to determine why you would need to do this in the first place? Is the tap water so disgusting that you're offering that you need to use an antiseptic in it first before giving it??

I think I would switch to bottled water first, or at least some kind of filtration method, but that's just me.
Then again I also don't believe in the whole "prevent exposure to any and all pathogens whatsoever!" attitude in order to produce these overly delicate birds that then cannot survive in a non-anal-retentive household.

Sparkle is designed to help prevent overgrowth of bacteria or algae and IMO it is not as effective after about 2-3 days.

I have used Sparkle, ACV, Grapefruit Seed Extract and Virkon-S all for sprouting and the only one that I think does absolutely anything is the Virkon-S.
The others all still resulted in nasty brown slime on the glass jars during the sprouting period, whereas with Virkon they stay crystal clear - so something is fishy there.

Frankly, if I'm feeding my birds un-rinsed seed soaked in Virkon it's obvious here that I'm not suggesting the use of Listerine as "harmful."

I just wonder what's the point, period.

Hello every one, There is a lot of great members with pretty heart in this forum with strong personality that i like to get to know them day after day I like the way they face others and not comes around the bushes to send a message .

Tiffany you really did not have to come around the bushes to express your comment, a lot of new members that will join soon has the right to know which person you are trying to send a message to and which method you do not agree with, you mentioned that you wear lost when you started reading about this subject form start and now with the above comments posted by you, you are making it worse and harder on the next first time "new" reader, and because we are here to share and learn and because i have strong personality like the others i like to let the new reader know that you wear talking about my method of using Listerine and Dettol to keep birds water clean and for long time, so please do not come around the bushes again when you disagree with any of my methods feel free to mention my name and trust me i will not be mad at you and i will respect your disagree comment no matter what .
Just say: Regarding Dean K Listerine and Dettol method 1,2,3ok?

Well that was not the main problem , what really bothered me that through out your writing i did not feel that you have any of your own experience regarding my method or regarding water cleaner that you use, i was wishing to read something without you saying :
I think.. I think.. I think well do not you have your own practice, Do you know that you can go to Walmart and buy microscope for only 150.00$ to run a test on this and that rather than keep standing on table with brooking leg .
Tiffany I do not like people to attack me or my methods as the way you did above base on (I think) and as i mentioned before i do not have to be a Vet or ask a vet or to go by the book or to buy products with closed eyes to use it on my canaries , all the products that you mentioned above i have made several test under the microscope to find out about it power, iam not saying its all bad i found out that Listerine and Dettol is the best to use on my canaries drinking water and bath, that is my method its up to you and for the others to use it or not, at least i always explain through my comments the good and bad side about any products i have mentioned thats why people need explanation then its up to them what to choose .

Not every approved products sold by big Co. means it is 100% great for use, even thought some of it is great such as Scatt sold by Lorain i agree with this products 100% because i run several test on it and i found it great.. i go with what i see right not with what i think then i tell people about it and its up to them to use it or not .

Iam sure that you know about the feed colorCanthaxanthin, its product approved to be used in the USA,Europe,etc... well listen to this :
Canthaxanthin suppose to be made of natural ingredients to enhance the red color on birds and others, but i have brook down this product two years ago to find out why my canaries became unhealthy just after i provided them with it, and by the way i lost a lot of them too,
I found out that the Co. made this product start adding too much of Cayenne pepper to add weight and as you know if you know that red pepper will destroy the bird Kidney in a short time .

I have reported this problem and i got the approval and if you would like send me your email to email you copy of the approval . Since that day i decided to make my own natural red canary feed color made of dry red fruits and red Veg, such as red Cherry and red sweet pepper stored over year to become dry then grounded, The pic,s of my canaries at my web site will show the powerful red color they have.
My point is: God provided us with Brain to use to discover things and find what is best for every thing belong to us, iam not asking you or others to believe my method, we are all here to exchange info to share and learn .
I may know more or less than some members about canaries but there is some members such as Cindy, Kenny, Candy,you and Q that know much more than me about Finches .
And by the way as you mentioned above one drop of Listerine or Dettol in 8.oz water bottle will clean and keep water clean for long time but its not really expected to clean a mouth from bacteria 100%

Good luck to you.... .... You have beautiful web site i really liked it and liked the products i may give you a call soon to order some .

Dean K...

[kenny66]

There is no wrong or right answer to any of this stuff, as, apart from Cindy and some others, most of us do not have the medical or scientific qualifications to either prove or disprove preferred animal management practices. So it is all just somones unsubstantiated opinion based on their experiences.Can I just point out one thing here. I have one large aviary where I run about 100 birds, mainly exotics (not australian) finches. In this aviary I use various additives, cleaning agents and just about anything money can buy to improve the health of the birds. I have other cages/aviaries where I provide only fresh clean water-greens-premium seed, grit and charcoal, crushed cuttlebone and soft food with well cleaned (naturally) accommodation. I provide live food to these in the breeding season. For me there is absolutely no measurable difference in either bird health or beeding success between the aviaries. Now I am presently giving consideration to ditching any water soluable additives and changing over to crystal clear water only and cutting down on all chemical bits and pieces, including listerine avicleans-the lot.. Of course, I will definitely continue the preventative treatments for coccidiosis, mega bacteria, canker and worms/ASM, which all occur because of the intensive way in which we keep our birds. There are a whole lot of other products and some inexpensive ones that mirror those produced commercially for the pet industry.These companies spent millions/billions of dollars producing these products to a high standard after MEDICAL trials based on SCIENTIFIC research and they should be able to make a buck . Without them there would be no Baycox, Scatt or any of the must have drugs that are available. And I am very gratefull these companies do spend the money. As a very significant dog breeder in the time when Parvovirus hit the dog world with almost a 100% mortality rate, it was these companies that produced the vaccine which really did save the canine world. Nobody makes us buy any of these products, so you can choose not to use them if you so wish. A number of comments made on this post have made me review how I keep my birds and I am very indebted for that. I also think it is really important that we restrain from lecturing people and personalising debate. For example I found Tiffanys post informative and entertaining and not in any way beating around the bush. As such it should be taken in the good humor and spirit it was meant.

[nixity]

so please do not come around the bushes again when you disagree with any of my methods feel free to mention my name and trust me i will not be mad at you and i will respect your disagree comment no matter what .
Just say: Regarding Dean K Listerine and Dettol method 1,2,3ok?

Dean - I really don't know what you're talking about. I also don't see a problem with generalizing, and I see no reason to specifically address anyone.
I was never disagreeing with anyone anywhere, if anything I was playing devil's advocate, and I see no harm in asking questions.

what really bothered me that through out your writing i did not feel that you have any of your own experience regarding my method or regarding water cleaner that you use, i was wishing to read something without you saying :

So by this statement am I to presume you just completely ignored the portion of my post where I very plainly stated my experience using ACV, Sparkle, GSE and Virkon-S?

Do you know that you can go to Walmart and buy microscope for only 150.00$ to run a test on this

No, I didn't know that. I've never personally seen microscopes for sale at Wal-Mart but that's much more convenient than ordering one online which is what I did when I bought mine.
The microscope I purchased was purchased directly from the manufacturer. But just because someone can go buy a microscope for $150, does not mean that that individual is necessarily trained to use a microscope or that the microscope purchased would be one which you'd be able to use to perform any significant experiments regarding microbial testing in tap water.

Tiffany I do not like people to attack me or my methods as the way you did above

The problem here is that evidently no one is allowed to ask questions about your methods without it coming across to you as an attack.
This to me sounds a lot like the preaching Bible thumper who plugs his ears and stomps the ground the second you start asking detailed questions about the ideas that are being taught.

What is so wrong about asking questions?
If we are all here to learn - why is asking questions such an offense to you? Why not just answer the questions without taking every one as such a personal attack? Would you rather us just swallow what you're saying without so much as an inquiry back? Isn't that a bit hypocritical of you?

all the products that you mentioned above i have made several test under the microscope to find out about it power, iam not saying its all bad i found out that Listerine and Dettol is the best to use on my canaries drinking water and bath, that is my method its up to you and for the others to use it or not

Exactly - but I don't see the harm in questioning the tests.
For example:

1. Can you describe the experiments you performed in detail including how you set up the experiments, what your control was, what your original hypothesis was, what the various dilution rates you tested and the resulting microbial counts etc etc?
2. What is the make and model of the microscope you used to perform the testing?
3. What kind of staining materials did you use (since bacteria testing isn't really all that relevant unless you've been staining for the bacteria types)
4. What kind of bacteria were you looking for in your tests? What were the existing levels and what were the ending levels? For each dilution? Over how many days?
5. Did you perform any petri-dish or growth testing for the diluted water?
6. Was the water pre-tested for levels of bacteria prior to the tests or was the bacteria artificially added to test the effectiveness of the listerine/dettol dilution addition?
7. Were there any tests done for fungi or algal growth and if so, what were they? These would have to be done separate?
8. How many times were the experiments repeated and what were the outlier results (if any)?

I'm sorry but, as someone who holds a degree in Biological Science these are the types of questions that I would need answered before I laid any foundation to personal "tests" that someone has done with a microscope in order to prove categorically that something at some particular dilution rate is successful at eliminating or preventing bacteria.

And it doesn't mean that I do not "agree" with your methods, you should do whatever works for you.
It just means that before I would conclude it was "proven" I would personally need to see the actual experiment/lab results and I would want to know very specific details about the experiments themselves.

[Sally]

There is no wrong or right answer to any of this stuff, as, apart from Cindy and some others, most of us do not have the medical or scientific qualifications to either prove or disprove preferred animal management practices. So it is all just somones unsubstantiated opinion based on their experiences.Can I just point out one thing here. I have one large aviary where I run about 100 birds, mainly exotics (not australian) finches. In this aviary I use various additives, cleaning agents and just about anything money can buy to improve the health of the birds. I have other cages/aviaries where I provide only fresh clean water-greens-premium seed, grit and charcoal, crushed cuttlebone and soft food with well cleaned (naturally) accommodation. I provide live food to these in the breeding season. For me there is absolutely no measurable difference in either bird health or beeding success between the aviaries. Now I am presently giving consideration to ditching any water soluable additives and changing over to crystal clear water only and cutting down on all chemical bits and pieces, including listerine avicleans-the lot.. Of course, I will definitely continue the preventative treatments for coccidiosis, mega bacteria, canker and worms/ASM, which all occur because of the intensive way in which we keep our birds. There are a whole lot of other products and some inexpensive ones that mirror those produced commercially for the pet industry.These companies spent millions/billions of dollars producing these products to a high standard after MEDICAL trials based on SCIENTIFIC research and they should be able to make a buck . Without them there would be no Baycox, Scatt or any of the must have drugs that are available. And I am very gratefull these companies do spend the money. As a very significant dog breeder in the time when Parvovirus hit the dog world with almost a 100% mortality rate, it was these companies that produced the vaccine which really did save the canine world. Nobody makes us buy any of these products, so you can choose not to use them if you so wish. A number of comments made on this post have made me review how I keep my birds and I am very indebted for that. I also think it is really important that we restrain from lecturing people and personalising debate. For example I found Tiffanys post informative and entertaining and not in any way beating around the bush. As such it should be taken in the good humor and spirit it was meant.

Well stated, Kenny!

[L in Ontario]

I believe that simply questioning ones methods does not imply an attack. I think most of us are open to new ideas and ways of doing things therefore clarification of tried methods by others is welcome and encouranged. How do we learn if not by questioning.

I found nothing wrong nor any attacking manner within Tiffany's posts. And we should try not to jump to conclusions of who is addressing whom if no names are mentioned and don't assume we are under attack and resort to coming back a little too strong.

[dfcauley]

I believe that simply questioning ones methods does not imply an attack. I think most of us are open to new ideas and ways of doing things therefore clarification of tried methods by others is welcome and encouranged. How do we learn if not by questioning.

I found nothing wrong nor any attacking manner within Tiffany's posts. And we should try not to jump to conclusions of who is addressing whom if no names are mentioned and don't assume we are under attack and resort to coming back a little too strong.

A LITTLE too strong??? I have had my hand slapped for much less. I do not think there is any language barrier here.....
I have to agree.... clean fresh water is the best thing we can do for our birds. Maybe... if we don't have time to clean their water bottles we have too many birds.

And I agree... Tiffany's post was informative and I appreciate her comments.

[CandoAviary]

The problem here is that evidently no one is allowed to ask questions about your methods without it coming across to you as an attack.
This to me sounds a lot like the preaching Bible thumper who plugs his ears and stomps the ground the second you start asking detailed questions about the ideas that are being taught.

What is so wrong about asking questions?
If we are all here to learn - why is asking questions such an offense to you? Why not just answer the questions without taking every one as such a personal attack?
Isn't that a bit hypocritical of you?
.

I believe you should just ask straight qestions and not add slights, even if they are inocent..?. What does religion have to do with this? The Bible is a good book... also Dean is a Muslim so I guess he would have to be thumping the Qur'an in one hand and the Bible in the other.... Sorry Dean... my sense of humor. "God" means different things to different people.
I think so many times statements can be blown out of propertion and taken more heartfelt than necessary. I could be ridiculous and take that above comment personaly because I am a Bible believing Christain but I am intelligent enough to know that this is just Tiffany's way of expressing herself. I am also blessed with discernment and wisdom to know that they are one in the same... If you are not attacking then stop the generalizations such as Bible thumping... When you defend yourself as a non attacker in the same couple of paragraphs with the Bible thumping comparison it is pretty hypocritical in itself.
"playing devil's advocate " ... why? This is a generalization that just happens to be connected to Tiffany's post.. however I have seen it across the board... even in my own post. A debate is a great format for facts... but this personal agenda bickering and questioning is silly. At least I apologize for being out of line when I am , or apologize even if I wasn't out of line yet still upset someone ... whether it is received or not. I learn and move on, too bad others can't read, learn, comment, and move on.
I have been reading and participating on this forum for a few years now and have consistantly noticed that tempers flare and feelings get hurt by reading more into someone's comment than nescessary.
Also notice that when cliques form bullying surfaces... it is a major problem everywhere in the world today. But for the majority of the members it seems they are here to learn and share about finches and experiences... not to promote their business, broadcast their education and titles, or express their views from their soapboxes...... oops... time to step down from my soapbox and move on... I'm done.

I do hope Dean has the time to publish his studies here. I am completely amazed at the research that he conducts on every product, every food, every aspect of canary health... I know of his very indepth research and understand totally why his site is called Canary Science... it's the science behind his husbandry Dean may not boast about his education and research but I will speak up and say, I am more impressed with this man's studies and results than anyone I have run across in the last decade.. except for maybe Dr. Rob Marshall .... I put them both in the same caliber as Robert Stroud known as the Birdman of Alcatraz. When it comes to canaries anyway
For finches... I am mostly impressed with hobbiest Lainey Alexander's Grassland Gouldian's natural health research. I also am thrilled to have learned from Tiffany's great genetic sharing of identifying gouldians mutations in the nest and Winnie McAlpin's gouldian mutation information.... But mostly when it comes to my beloved gouldians I have to toot the horn for Stewart Evans and Mike Fidler, (Dr Stacey Gelis, Russell Kingston, Dr Debra McDonald, David Myers and Sarah Pryke) and last but not least Bill Van Patten for providing me a close up look at the gouldians of the wild and for providing a site for such great resources. I urge all that really want to learn from facts based on actually use and studies to seek each of these sites out for good information without the personal thumps... google their names with gouldian afterwards and the search engines will get you to their sites. If you have trouble finding any information just PM me and I will send them to you.

Back to the subject of the original topic....I have changed my stance and will be using Dettol instead of Listerine, or other antseptics based on Dean's studies. Thank you for the insight and deep explanation you have furnished me Dean.

[CandoAviary]

Maybe... if we don't have time to clean their water bottles we have too many birds.

I don't think it's the number of birds. I think it is a matter of how they are housed. A community aviary such as you have with a few water resecpticles is very different form breeders who seperate breedstock into individual breeding cages for certain genetic outcomes and accurate records. Or the canary trainer that has placed his canaries into box cages for training, or the show person that places birds in show cages for training, or the labratories conducting experiments on birds, etc. You can get a lot of water bottles going real quick. My community aviaries for enjoymment are by far the easiest to maintain compared to my breeding rooms, or store facilities. I have a lot of waterers and spend an hour at home and an hour at the store on water changing. I do this for the health of my birds... but if I can find a way to offer great health and spend less time then I'm all for that.
It is mostly about providing water as safe as possible whether you have only one pair or many. So many members that have a few finches have lost their birds to waterborn bacteria. Here are a few diseases birds can get from dirty water
http://www.ehow.com/list_6764562_types- ... ater_.html

The biggest worry to most of us with finches/canaries is giardia, eimeria, isospora . Coccidiosis is the biggest killer and I woyuld think that most keepers of a pair or 1000 pairs would want to safeguard against this.

[nixity]

What does religion have to do with this? The Bible is a good book... also Dean is a Muslim so I guess he would have to be thumping the Qur'an in one hand and the Bible in the other.... Sorry Dean... my sense of humor. "God" means different things to different people.

I never said he was preaching religion or that he himself was talking about the Bible. It was an analogy to the way in which I feel like he's handling the situation, which isn't dissimilar from many fanatical extremist religious people I've dealt with in my life who refuse to even so much as give someone else's opinion thought.

And considering he brought up "GOD" and felt the need to change the color to draw emphasis, it was actually him that brought up religion/God in the first place, not me.

This is all an interesting digression, though.

If you are not attacking then stop the generalizations such as Bible thumping... When you defend yourself as a non attacker in the same couple of paragraphs with the Bible thumping comparison it is pretty hypocritical in itself.

How is that a generalization? It's a comparison to a very particular type of personality, I'm not generalizing "Christians" or any sect of people, I'm being pretty damn specific if you ask me. Yes, I could have said Qu'ran thumper, or Book of Mormon Thumper, but most people tend to default to what they are most familiar with if you're making a comment such as the one I made.

Anyways, that's all it was - an analogy. If someone is offended by it then I apologize. Personally, I was brought up to say what's on my mind, so I say it.

"playing devil's advocate " ... why?

Why not? In this case, as I said many times before, I don't have any personal bias over his methods I just have questions (rightfully so) about them. Why is it bad to not take any side but to instead attempt to gather information to understand it better?
What is so wrong with being able to agree with Cindy's POV, but also having my own?
Why does it have to be "I agree" or "I don't agree" instead of "I'm on the fence about this until I get more information?"

A debate is a great format for facts... but this personal agenda bickering and questioning is silly

What personal agenda? If anything - isn't it more Dean's personal agenda to defend his practices than it is anyone else's personal agenda to try to understand them better?

But for the majority of the members it seems they are here to learn and share about finches and experiences... not to promote their business, broadcast their education and titles, or express their views from their soapboxes

You know, it's this type of back handed statement that causes people to get cross because even though you may not intend it (and sometimes I have a hard time believing that is the case), because this can come across insinuating that I'm here promoting my website or my business (which I'm not, if someone asks me if I sell something I will answer but I have never tried to push my site or my products into anyone's lap) - it also appears to be a direct reply to me stating I have a degree in Biology.
And honestly, what is wrong with stating that if it helps explain my position of curiosity?

I spent a lot of time (and a lot of money) earning that degree. I'm proud of it, so yes, I am going to state my education and I don't see that there's anything negative in doing so.

[The canary man]

so please do not come around the bushes again when you disagree with any of my methods feel free to mention my name and trust me i will not be mad at you and i will respect your disagree comment no matter what .
Just say: Regarding Dean K Listerine and Dettol method 1,2,3ok?

Dean - I really don't know what you're talking about. I also don't see a problem with generalizing, and I see no reason to specifically address anyone.
I was never disagreeing with anyone anywhere, if anything I was playing devil's advocate, and I see no harm in asking questions.

what really bothered me that through out your writing i did not feel that you have any of your own experience regarding my method or regarding water cleaner that you use, i was wishing to read something without you saying :

So by this statement am I to presume you just completely ignored the portion of my post where I very plainly stated my experience using ACV, Sparkle, GSE and Virkon-S?

Do you know that you can go to Walmart and buy microscope for only 150.00$ to run a test on this

No, I didn't know that. I've never personally seen microscopes for sale at Wal-Mart but that's much more convenient than ordering one online which is what I did when I bought mine.
The microscope I purchased was purchased directly from the manufacturer. But just because someone can go buy a microscope for $150, does not mean that that individual is necessarily trained to use a microscope or that the microscope purchased would be one which you'd be able to use to perform any significant experiments regarding microbial testing in tap water.

Tiffany I do not like people to attack me or my methods as the way you did above

The problem here is that evidently no one is allowed to ask questions about your methods without it coming across to you as an attack.
This to me sounds a lot like the preaching Bible thumper who plugs his ears and stomps the ground the second you start asking detailed questions about the ideas that are being taught.

What is so wrong about asking questions?
If we are all here to learn - why is asking questions such an offense to you? Why not just answer the questions without taking every one as such a personal attack? Would you rather us just swallow what you're saying without so much as an inquiry back? Isn't that a bit hypocritical of you?

all the products that you mentioned above i have made several test under the microscope to find out about it power, iam not saying its all bad i found out that Listerine and Dettol is the best to use on my canaries drinking water and bath, that is my method its up to you and for the others to use it or not

Exactly - but I don't see the harm in questioning the tests.
For example:

1. Can you describe the experiments you performed in detail including how you set up the experiments, what your control was, what your original hypothesis was, what the various dilution rates you tested and the resulting microbial counts etc etc?
2. What is the make and model of the microscope you used to perform the testing?
3. What kind of staining materials did you use (since bacteria testing isn't really all that relevant unless you've been staining for the bacteria types)
4. What kind of bacteria were you looking for in your tests? What were the existing levels and what were the ending levels? For each dilution? Over how many days?
5. Did you perform any petri-dish or growth testing for the diluted water?
6. Was the water pre-tested for levels of bacteria prior to the tests or was the bacteria artificially added to test the effectiveness of the listerine/dettol dilution addition?
7. Were there any tests done for fungi or algal growth and if so, what were they? These would have to be done separate?
8. How many times were the experiments repeated and what were the outlier results (if any)?

I'm sorry but, as someone who holds a degree in Biological Science these are the types of questions that I would need answered before I laid any foundation to personal "tests" that someone has done with a microscope in order to prove categorically that something at some particular dilution rate is successful at eliminating or preventing bacteria.

And it doesn't mean that I do not "agree" with your methods, you should do whatever works for you.
It just means that before I would conclude it was "proven" I would personally need to see the actual experiment/lab results and I would want to know very specific details about the experiments themselves.

Your questions have been already answered long time ago, Written and covered for each exams dates, temperatures, type of bacteria, pictures have been taking and the name for each type of virus, cyst, bacteria etc.... I have covered way more than the questions that was mentioned above. The file has been done and sent to the "respective lab" for a final result .
May be Dettol is not common in the USA and sold only online and some foreign Stores but its vary common in British which has the main factory.
Dettol is the only great products that i knew of that cure the canary bumble foot that caused by extra protein stored in the bird kidney just as soon as the bird foot dipped in it one time .

Bumble foot is my recent study to show that its not caused by external bacteria that get in to the bird foot as the way some people think . that is my resent study and lab work and its about to be posted in the scientific magazine.
I wish if i can show my paper work regarding Listerine and Dettol in water in this forum but i know that it will take the whole forum pages. but it will have special page in my web site.

I believe i do not have to dress white to study and search, but i believe that every one has brain and have the right to make a study and new discovery .

Kenny.. you have asked me before what is my specialty area?
My specialty area is to love canaries as much as i can and to get in to their brain as much as i could and to discover what they like and what they need to keep them in the best conditions as long as they are in our cages and to discover about them what it has not been discovered, hopping if i keep living, my next study will be the pox virus .
Iam not perfect and i know that i will make mistakes but at the same time i know that i should not just be a canary breeder to sell canaries and collect money. So wish me a good luck .
Iam not different or better than any one.

Tiffany i may need your help and others regarding :
Iam in processing to study
1) Why God provided canaries and finches with only 18 flight feathers in each wing not less or more?
2) Why they have 12 main tail feathers and which feathers will molt firs the wing or the tail ?
3) If the wing molt first.... which feather will drop (molt ) first ?
4) Why the feather number 7 (almost in the middle of the wing) will molt first ?
5) does all the wing feathers and tail will come out during the molting season or all will be replaced during the year round ?
6) what does it mean if the second or third or fourth etc.. wing feather molted (came out) ? and how many days i have to wait before i breed my canary or finch to avoid unfertilized eggs .
Thanks God i do not need lab work to find out about the molting and since you are in to breeding finches and iam not can you help ?
" No share no learn"

By the way My microscope cost me 1365.00 $ and its not from Walmart .
Good luck to all of us .
Dean K .

[L in Ontario]

Dettol is the only great products that i knew of that cure the canary bumble foot that caused by extra protein stored in the bird kidney just as soon as the bird foot dipped in it one time .

Bumble foot is my recent study to show that its not caused by external bacteria that get in to the bird foot as the way some people think . that is my resent study and lab work and its about to be posted in the scientific magazine.
I wish if i can show my paper work regarding Listerine and Dettol in water in this forum but i know that it will take the whole forum pages. but it will have special page in my web site.

Dean, when you have this paper work published or posted (regarding Bumble Foot) on your website - I would love to see a direct URL link posted in a separate thread on the Finch Forum, leading to it. Thank you.

[DanteD716]

I agree, no religion should be brought up, but it's lent people! Have fun! Who's not eating meat tommorow?

I have a question, as Candace has said previously: That dilution of listerine could not even kill the bacteria in your mouth"

If this dilution is so weak, is there a point to giving it to the birds? What big a difference does it make in the water?

Tiffany i may need your help and others regarding :
I am in processing to study
1) Why God provided canaries and finches with only 18 flight feathers in each wing not less or more?

I believe this a question for God, not Tiffany.

[DanteD716]

I think well do not you have your own practice, Do you know that you can go to Walmart and buy microscope for only 150.00$ to run a test on this and that rather than keep standing on table with brooking leg

Only 150.00?!

[CandoAviary]

I have a question, as Candace has said previously: That dilution of listerine could not even kill the bacteria in your mouth"

If this dilution is so weak, is there a point to giving it to the birds? What big a difference does it make in the water?

One drop of listerine to 8oz of water will keep the water free of bacteria longer than untreated water. You can conduct this experiment easily yourself if you have a microscope and 8 oz of treated water and 8 oz untreated water.
The point of adding one drop to the water is to keep the water free longer for the birds consumption.
Two things I have found that will make a healthy bird sick quicker than anything is bacteria in the water, bacteria growing on foods such as greens and sprouted or chitted seed.