Listerine and/or Apple Cider Vinegar (ACV)?

[kenny66]

I agree, no religion should be brought up, but it's lent people! Have fun! Who's not eating meat tommorow?

I have a question, as Candace has said previously: That dilution of listerine could not even kill the bacteria in your mouth"

If this dilution is so weak, is there a point to giving it to the birds? What big a difference does it make in the water?

Tiffany i may need your help and others regarding :
I am in processing to study
1) Why God provided canaries and finches with only 18 flight feathers in each wing not less or more?

I believe this a question for God, not Tiffany.

I do not blame you my friend may be you still young to understand the question but some day you will .

I am not sure what this means. Dante is an insightful and hilarious contributor to this forum. I would trust him with my birds any day. Age has nothing to do with it. However the willingness to learn does

[The canary man]

Hi every one ......
The good thing about this subject is that it got a lot of people attention to think with more care for their birds water and general health regardless, if they use ACV, Listerine, dettol or any other products or if they do not even add any thing to their birds water .

The good news is that i have gained more friends, some of them shared their comments with us and some unfortunately did not like to based on their personal reasons .

I believe that i have posted enough info regarding this subject and i thank every one for the share hopping to see you all some where else in this forum to start new subject that can be beneficial to all of us .

I would like to invite every one to join me with this coming Sunday 3/25/2012 bird show in Green wood, IN hopping to see you all there.


Dean K...

[cindy]

Ok...there are those that may not want to hear this, others that agree

This is in no way an attack on anyone, I will make this very clear.

Ok, I am visiting with my father Immunologist/Microbiologist. Research/Deveopment of drugs, products for both humans and animals. Personally I would trust his word not because he is my father but because he is qualified to make such claims.

I posed the question of a diluted form of listerine diluted in water, fed to a bird, what were his thoughts on it. I did not even get to the strenth of dilution and he had a quick response...."not a smart idea."

I stated it was 1 to 2 drops per 8 oz....he stated that it is a human product not meant for animals, birds and it is not recommended and should not be ingested. To provide it to a bird is unwise, it contains alcohol, a high concentration. I asked if the other ingredients pose a risk, are some of the ingredients passed or stored in the bird's tissue, fat....he stated no one knows how a bird will process this material even in a diluted state. If that has not been examined properly it is putting a bird at risk. To do so and claim this is safe without proper validation is extremely risky

He stated that by doing this, adding Listerine to the water a person may feel it is beneficial and they do not have to change out water as often is not wise. Bottom line fresh water daily. This also pertains to bleach.

I also asked him about, bumble foot mention above, description of gout......this was the response....this will not and can not be cured by dipping the foot in a solution. This is an internal issue and needs correction by diet and possible medication.

On the issue of publication of a study....in order to claim something is scientifically founded, you must have the proper background...degree, knowledge to make the claim. The methods used must be precise, and all documentation and publications done through the proper channels to be ligit.

Ok so I want to ask this....has any testing been done on the long term internal effects of either bleach or Listerine been done on all internal organs of a controlled group of birds....I am not talking about visually observing them but concrete scientific studies which would involve tissue, blood, smears cultures done properly by a "qualified" scientific lab, person. Basically if you do not hold a degree and have the proper skills, education then making such bold statements is invalid.


I personally always used fresh water, no additives until off and on since raising finches....the additve is ACV. I will pose this concept to my father today. I to may be changing back to plain water. I am also going to look into using Virkon S for cleaning as Sally and Tiffany recommends.

Honestly....bottom line we are all learning but we can't loose sight that it is the total well being of the bird we need to consider.

[debbie276]

I also asked him about, bumble foot mention above, description of gout......this was the response....this will not and can not be cured by dipping the foot in a solution. This is an internal issue and needs correction by diet and possible medication.

There are quite a few sites that say to treat with antibiotics topically, here are just a couple. Are you saying these are all wrong and you must treat internally only?

Bird Vet
http://www.birdvet.com.au/exotics%20car ... lefoot.htm
“Bumblefoot" is a form of pododermatitis. The causes can be hard plastic or dowelling perches and sandpaper around perches, as well as diets of poor nutritional value and high energy will lead to obese birds with vitamin A deficiency. If the perches are unclean, bacteria will build up and can move onto the foot as the foot has lost its protective scales.
Antibiotics will be needed as well as anti-inflammatories and antibiotics topically on the feet. If the "bumblefoot" is in the very severe category, a ball bandage may need to be adhered to the feet with regular changes necessary.

University of New Hampshire Cooperative extension
extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resou ... Rep800.pdf
Bumblefoot results from injury or abrasion to the lower surface of the foot, which allows for the introduction of staphylococcus bacteria.
Draining the lesion promotes healing. Soak the foot in warm water and Epsom salts. When the scab has softened, remove it to expose the pus-filled cavity. Flush the cavity with hydrogen peroxide to clean out the pus and debris. Pack the cavity with antibiotic ointment, and then wrap the foot to keep the cavity clean.

[cindy]

Debbie...this was inregards to a comment made earlier but when I read it it appeared to group gout....crystal/uric acid in with Bumble foot.....I do not have my computer. I will go back to find the gout reference...avian gout can not be treated topically.

[cindy]

Debbie go to page 9 Dean has written Bumble foot and tied it in with proteins kidney....they are two separate issues this Bumble foot.....and gout. I wrote "description of gout"....perhaps I should have worded clearer.

[cindy]

so please do not come around the bushes again when you disagree with any of my methods feel free to mention my name and trust me i will not be mad at you and i will respect your disagree comment no matter what .
Just say: Regarding Dean K Listerine and Dettol method 1,2,3ok?

Dean - I really don't know what you're talking about. I also don't see a problem with generalizing, and I see no reason to specifically address anyone.
I was never disagreeing with anyone anywhere, if anything I was playing devil's advocate, and I see no harm in asking questions.

what really bothered me that through out your writing i did not feel that you have any of your own experience regarding my method or regarding water cleaner that you use, i was wishing to read something without you saying :

So by this statement am I to presume you just completely ignored the portion of my post where I very plainly stated my experience using ACV, Sparkle, GSE and Virkon-S?

Do you know that you can go to Walmart and buy microscope for only 150.00$ to run a test on this

No, I didn't know that. I've never personally seen microscopes for sale at Wal-Mart but that's much more convenient than ordering one online which is what I did when I bought mine.
The microscope I purchased was purchased directly from the manufacturer. But just because someone can go buy a microscope for $150, does not mean that that individual is necessarily trained to use a microscope or that the microscope purchased would be one which you'd be able to use to perform any significant experiments regarding microbial testing in tap water.

Tiffany I do not like people to attack me or my methods as the way you did above

The problem here is that evidently no one is allowed to ask questions about your methods without it coming across to you as an attack.
This to me sounds a lot like the preaching Bible thumper who plugs his ears and stomps the ground the second you start asking detailed questions about the ideas that are being taught.

What is so wrong about asking questions?
If we are all here to learn - why is asking questions such an offense to you? Why not just answer the questions without taking every one as such a personal attack? Would you rather us just swallow what you're saying without so much as an inquiry back? Isn't that a bit hypocritical of you?

all the products that you mentioned above i have made several test under the microscope to find out about it power, iam not saying its all bad i found out that Listerine and Dettol is the best to use on my canaries drinking water and bath, that is my method its up to you and for the others to use it or not

Exactly - but I don't see the harm in questioning the tests.
For example:

1. Can you describe the experiments you performed in detail including how you set up the experiments, what your control was, what your original hypothesis was, what the various dilution rates you tested and the resulting microbial counts etc etc?
2. What is the make and model of the microscope you used to perform the testing?
3. What kind of staining materials did you use (since bacteria testing isn't really all that relevant unless you've been staining for the bacteria types)
4. What kind of bacteria were you looking for in your tests? What were the existing levels and what were the ending levels? For each dilution? Over how many days?
5. Did you perform any petri-dish or growth testing for the diluted water?
6. Was the water pre-tested for levels of bacteria prior to the tests or was the bacteria artificially added to test the effectiveness of the listerine/dettol dilution addition?
7. Were there any tests done for fungi or algal growth and if so, what were they? These would have to be done separate?
8. How many times were the experiments repeated and what were the outlier results (if any)?

I'm sorry but, as someone who holds a degree in Biological Science these are the types of questions that I would need answered before I laid any foundation to personal "tests" that someone has done with a microscope in order to prove categorically that something at some particular dilution rate is successful at eliminating or preventing bacteria.

And it doesn't mean that I do not "agree" with your methods, you should do whatever works for you.
It just means that before I would conclude it was "proven" I would personally need to see the actual experiment/lab results and I would want to know very specific details about the experiments themselves.

Your questions have been already answered long time ago, Written and covered for each exams dates, temperatures, type of bacteria, pictures have been taking and the name for each type of virus, cyst, bacteria etc.... I have covered way more than the questions that was mentioned above. The file has been done and sent to the "respective lab" for a final result .
May be Dettol is not common in the USA and sold only online and some foreign Stores but its vary common in British which has the main factory.
Dettol is the only great products that i knew of that cure the canary bumble foot that caused by extra protein stored in the bird kidney just as soon as the bird foot dipped in it one time .

Bumble foot is my recent study to show that its not caused by external bacteria that get in to the bird foot as the way some people think . that is my resent study and lab work and its about to be posted in the scientific magazine.
I wish if i can show my paper work regarding Listerine and Dettol in water in this forum but i know that it will take the whole forum pages. but it will have special page in my web site.

I believe i do not have to dress white to study and search, but i believe that every one has brain and have the right to make a study and new discovery .

Kenny.. you have asked me before what is my specialty area?
My specialty area is to love canaries as much as i can and to get in to their brain as much as i could and to discover what they like and what they need to keep them in the best conditions as long as they are in our cages and to discover about them what it has not been discovered, hopping if i keep living, my next study will be the pox virus .
Iam not perfect and i know that i will make mistakes but at the same time i know that i should not just be a canary breeder to sell canaries and collect money. So wish me a good luck .
Iam not different or better than any one.

Tiffany i may need your help and others regarding :
Iam in processing to study
1) Why God provided canaries and finches with only 18 flight feathers in each wing not less or more?
2) Why they have 12 main tail feathers and which feathers will molt firs the wing or the tail ?
3) If the wing molt first.... which feather will drop (molt ) first ?
4) Why the feather number 7 (almost in the middle of the wing) will molt first ?
5) does all the wing feathers and tail will come out during the molting season or all will be replaced during the year round ?
6) what does it mean if the second or third or fourth etc.. wing feather molted (came out) ? and how many days i have to wait before i breed my canary or finch to avoid unfertilized eggs .
Thanks God i do not need lab work to find out about the molting and since you are in to breeding finches and iam not can you help ?
" No share no learn"

By the way My microscope cost me 1365.00 $ and its not from Walmart .
Good luck to all of us .
Dean K .

Debbie....Dean's response....proteins, Bumble foot.....sorry on my cell no way to edit this down smaller.

[cindy]

Avian gout

http://www.avianweb.com/gout.html

I found this in one female BC, Herb Salad, leafy greens help.

[debbie276]

Wasn't thinking gout, I was thinking bumblefoot, it really didn't require 4 follow-up posts but thanks.
Of interest is that that same website "Avian web" quotes Dean on their bumblefoot page:
http://www.avianweb.com/bumblefoot.html

I'll be stepping back now, you just caught my attention with "bumblefoot".
Way too much posturing here for me.

[cindy]

Wasn't thinking gout, I was thinking bumblefoot, it really didn't require 4 follow-up posts but thanks.
Of interest is that that same website "Avian web" quotes Dean on their bumblefoot page:
http://www.avianweb.com/bumblefoot.html

I'll be stepping back now, you just caught my attention with "bumblefoot".
Way too much posturing here for me.

Me to Debbie, I agree ......sorry about the 4 separate posts. My computer is home, my cell did not want to allow my edits so I posted instead.....no internet at this home vacation spot.

[Bluebonnet]

Guys, I have found an odd but strange method, like listerine, pinesole!!!! It kills germs, just I would add 1 tblsp for every 2 gallons. Now there is a great article on this, so I think I shall try it. Has anybody else heard of this?? Interesting!

I was cracking a joke! Hahaha! Get it? No?

Dante, thanks for trying to bring a bit of levity to this thread, I appreciate it!

I don't get it. Someone is being attacked (for lack of a better word) for suggesting/using listerine and then when someone who is opposed to the idea of listerine makes a joke about using pine-sol because it also kills germs, that's funny? I'd argue it comes across as mean spiritied at best.

[debbie276]

I don't get it. Someone is being attacked (for lack of a better word) for suggesting/using listerine and then when someone who is opposed to the idea of listerine makes a joke about using pine-sol because it also kills germs, that's funny? I'd argue it comes across as mean spiritied at best.

All I kept thinking was "boy I hope someone that wasn't following this thread closely doesn't try that!"
I don't think anything good will come from this thread other then bad feelings at this point. Maybe you all should agree to disagree and it should be locked and ended.

[kenny66]

totally agree

[Sally]

I agree, I don't think there is anything more to learn from this thread. There doesn't appear to be any agreement, and this could continue ad infinitum. Let's put this one to bed.

But I do have to comment that Dante's joke was merely an attempt to lighten up and stop some of the negativity of this thread. I doubt he has a mean-spirited bone in his body!