Never a dull moment

[L in Ontario]

Oooooh I just adore baby pics! Congrats no matter what they end up being, Tiffany.

[cindy]

Very cute Tiffany! Congratulations on the babies!!

[DanteD716]

They look great, hoping for healthy chicks!

[nixity]

Maybe your photos show darker on my monitor, but I still feel the other two are fawns. Sure wish we could fast-forward a few weeks!

It's just so strange because all of the other fawn pictures I've seen the mouth markings are much darker as are the eyes??

[DanteD716]

Can they be creamino??

[nixity]

I don't know the genetics enough of either bird to be able to answer that but Ivan seems to think they are fawns and that their eyes and markings will darken over time.
I'm not as convinced - but let's say for speculation's sake both parents are split for grey and fawn, perhaps they are Fawn Greys and this is why they are so light in color.

Or.... perhaps both split for Fawn and Dilute, and they are Dilute Fawns. I just have no freaking clue.. LOL
It would just be such a genetic trio and stars aligning to get TWO in the first clutch out of the pair. Talk about a statistical jack pot.

I would much prefer he be split for creamino.
Evidently the Ino gene is not located on the same part of the chromosome as the Pearl gene - so due to cross-over not all female offspring would inherit both Ino and Pearl simultaneously, but if they did, Ivan thinks it would look similar to a grey-ino which to me, would be lovely.

Ivan related the inheritance of both Ino/Pearl simultaneously to the way the Fawn Chestnut Flanked White Zebra finch works - which means nothing to me because I know little to nothing about Zebras and their genetics, so maybe Dante or Cindy you could chime in about that mutation and how it works?

[DanteD716]

Lol, I love the little looking off into space look after "wouldn't that be lovely?" lol!! The CFW Zebra finch works to remove all the grey in a bird, leaving it white and the markings (orange) at full strenght..

It is sex-linked, so male can be splits and produce females, females will produce split sons. When combined with fawn, this is what Roy Beckham says:

The combination with fawn requires a genetic phenomenon known as crossing over to occur before CFW and Fawn can be combined. Crossing over is a random occurrence so one cannot predict how long, if ever, before the combination will occur. Fawn-CFWs look similar to gray series CFWs, but all the black markings will be dark brown instead. Once combined the two mutations are linked and will act as one.

What really interest me was "once the two mutations combine the will act as one.. i hope I answered your question?

[DanteD716]

Basically, Fawn and CFW both work to lighten the bird.

Both are sex-linked, when they are combined it is like making a new mutation.

[nixity]

I understand the crossing over thing - I just didn't consider it as impact worthy with respect to sex linked mutations because I simply assumed that the hen received the single Z chromosome and that's that - but I guess what's going on is let's say Pearl is at the top and Ino is at the bottom, "crossing over" is another way for genetic diversity in which the top and/or bottom half of the duplicated chromosomes "swap" in essence.. so you may get babies with just Pearl, with just Ino, and a potential fraction with both, but as Roy explains - there is no statistical equation to determine what the fraction will be or how many clutches it would take to produce it.

IOW - males have two "Sex" ZZ chromosomes, so let's say that Pearl is located on the top part and Ino is located on the bottom, but hypothetically let's assume my Pearl male is "split" for Ino.
Genetically speaking we know statistically a Pearl male will produce all Pearl hens, but the Ino portion of it must be located on a part that criss-crosses with the other Z chromosome and "swaps" the link to where it doesn't always pass on in conjunction with Pearl.

Does that make sense to lay people? :/

[DanteD716]

Tiffany, I almost failed biology. You lost me.

[nixity]

Maybe this will help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_crossover

[L in Ontario]

Does that make sense to lay people? :/

Heck no! As hard as I try, I can never keep genetic information straight in my brain for more than 23.7 seconds, and usually less than that!

[L in Ontario]

Maybe this will help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_crossover

Yeah... no - your explanation lasted longer.

[DanteD716]

Maybe this will help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosomal_crossover

Yeah... no - your explanation lasted longer.

I agree.

[nixity]

Well here's pictures from two weekends ago - two of the three remaining have fledged. Unfortunately the youngest of the four, the little chocolate or pearl (I'll never know which) just couldn't compete for food and died shortly after these pictures were taken

But oy vey what surprises they do bring.
From a Pearl male with a Chocolate background and a Chocolate hen my first successful offspring are two Fawn Selfs and one Fawn Grey.
That means the Pearl is Pearl/Fawn/Grey and the Chocolate is Chocolate/Fawn/Grey.

Talk about a roll of the dice!