Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

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henrietta
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Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by henrietta » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:35 am

So, just like everyone, when I first started with finches all I gave them were a basic "finch mix" seed blend from petsmart for their seeds. Then I started researching on the forum and found out about Mike Fidler and all the magical ways I could be feeding my finches. I have searched through old posts such as Austerity diet for Goudlians..., Mike Fidler's soft food, and Tip for the Austere Diet. I found out a lot, especially by reading through all the comments (which I totally recommend for all us new finchers who were not on the forum back in 2009). It seems everyone was talking about it a few years ago, and now, they just aren't.

I especially found this comment from nixity helpful in explaining the whole concept (from the post Austerity diet for Goudlians...)
nixity wrote: The general calendar goes something like this:

1. Maintenance/Resting Season Diet (3 months)

2. Austere Diet (1 month to reduce body fat, cease hormone flow, and rest the reproductive organs of adult birds)

3. Breeding Season Diet (6 months)

4. Austere Diet (2 weeks to help induce the molt of adult birds...DO NOT USE ON UNMOLTED JUVENILE BIRDS)

5. Molting Season Diet (6 weeks)

6. Repeat Maintenance/Resting Season Diet in Step 1 to restart the annual cycle

So - after the molt is complete you transition them to the Maintenance/Resting diet for 3 months :)
(Just including it for all the new people.)

Back when I was originally researching everything, I bought the Mike Fidler black and white sprouting mixes along with the soft food (from nixity). And I had such fun watching the video and making it and freezing it and feeding it for the first time, feeling like finally I will be meeting my finches' nutrition needs. But then, I realized I had no idea how I was supposed to be feeding this mix. Every day? Was this a treat or all the seeds they need? It says to only give a small amount per day and make them eat it all, but of course my finches won't eat the safflower or the black seeds, so I just gave them a big 'ol scoop and leave it for a week, hoping they will eventually try a black seed in their life lol (but really half of it ends up outside for the mourning doves, who are surely getting fat off Mike Fidler lol!!) and they still have constant access to their other seed blend. I don't know if this is too rich for the "maintenance" diet, to have daily access. So I finally decided to ask about it lol

My questions about the whole concept of increasing and decreasing the protein throughout the year:
1. Is this mostly a Gouldian thing? (not the Mike Fidler's mix, but the whole concept of protein cycling throughout the year) (all the posts and comments seemed geared towards them in my searches, which is why I'm asking)

2. If I never breed my birds, would I just always keep them on a maintenance diet? What would this consist of? Would they be lacking in protein eventually? Do they need the rotating cycles to keep healthy even with no breeding?

3. In theory, if I were to increase protein in my NONBREEDING birds, would this frustrate them as they have no mate? Maybe even start them fighting between themselves?

4. I have only had these birds for 7 months, so I have never seen a complete year cycle. I have never seen a "moult." Do all finches moult once a year? Do I have to induce this moult with a low protein diet? sorry if that seems like a dumb question, but I have searched the forum and all I could find was in regards to gouldians.

Like I said, a few years ago, members were talking about it, at least 3 finchforum members were selling Mike Fidler's mixes at their stores, and now apparently our only US supplier is not providing it anymore. What's going on? I really don't mean that to offend anyone! I'm just trying to figure this thing out. And I do realize you can still provide differing amounts of protein, even without the Birds r Us/Mike Fidler blends. I just think that for people like me, just starting out, having a ready made mix would have been the easiest way to go (since I am not an expert who can mix my own blends).

I hope this starts a good discussion to help out everyone who wasn't around back when this idea was starting, because I really don't understand the basics behind it, or if it's necessary, or only for breeding birds, or gouldians, or what? Thanks so much to anyone who takes the time to help me out on this concept. :)

OH also, I am just talking about SEEDS, yes I feed hard boiled egg and sprouts and broccoli and calcium sources, etc. This is just in regard to the seed blend.
Liz
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by 30 Seconds to Bob » Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:13 pm

First of all, sorry if I don't touch upon everything that you said, but I'm just stating what I do pertaining to the title of your topic. I don't know if this applies to finches from equatorial regions, but I've been following this schedule religiously for my canaries for several years, and have adopted it for my javas as well.
Birds need seasons. In the wild they don't just live on "human" hours that usually involve waking up at around 7 am every day and going to bed around 11.
Their whole annual cycle requires requires seasonal periods to condition, breed, moult, rest and recover. Their diet should follow these seasonal requirements, regardless if you are breeding them or not. That is what would happen in nature and it just makes sense. Late winter and early spring is the time for peak conditioning. They need seasonal springtime veggies such as leafy green veggies, sprouts and eggfood. Breeding time requires less leafy veggies but more eggfood and protein. This should continue right up until after the moult.
Fall and winter is a time to rest and recover. Less protein is needed, but more carbs and fats and oily seeds should be made available. Veggies can be offered sparingly, but should be limited to tubers and dark green, thick leafy veggies such as broccoli and kale. The cycle repeats itself in the spring. The amount of daylight received should also be correlated to what is happening outside. Birds can live on "human" schedules for periods of time, but IMO they will not thrive. The person who "enlightened" me to this method of avian husbandry has canaries living to 20+ years of age and several over 15. If anyone can outdo this, please fill me in and I may consider changing things up JMO. Bob
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2 java finches, 1 split to normal, 1 white
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by debbie276 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:49 pm

I absolutely agree with Bob. I haven't been able to follow the Mike Fidler "seasons" with my gouldians because they are all on the same cycle and not in the order Mike says. They molt in the spring, breed right after the molt in the summer and rest during the cold winter months. I up the protein during molts and breeding and feed a maintenance diet when resting.
Debbie
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SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
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SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
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GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by henrietta » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:02 pm

30 Seconds to Bob Thanks for your reply. And I know my post was enormous, so don't worry about not touching on everything. I was just trying to give some background to my question to help out the people who had never heard of it before.
30 Seconds to Bob wrote: Their whole annual cycle requires seasonal periods to condition, breed, moult, rest and recover. Their diet should follow these seasonal requirements, regardless if you are breeding them or not.
So even if they are not breeding or rearing young, they still should be taking in extra protein in the summer months? (I assume that would be the breeding time?) Do you find this stimulates them into territorial behavior or other negative side effects when they do not have a mate? For example, I have 2 cordon bleu males together and no females. Might they start fighting?

Also, most of what you used as your examples did not involve changing the seeds you feed, but the variety and amounts of veggies and eggfood. Do I have this right? That seems a LOT easier than having 3-4 different seed blends!!!

Thanks again for replying!
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by henrietta » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:09 pm

debbie276 wrote: I up the protein during molts and breeding and feed a maintenance diet when resting.
If you don't mind my asking, do you change your seed mix to change their protein intake or do you change veggies and eggfood?

Also, part of my problem is that my birds are always "resting" lol What about your birds that you aren't breeding? Do they get extra protein at the same time as your breeding birds? Thanks!!
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by debbie276 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:22 pm

The birds are all together in an aviary so they all get the same diet. I use a basic seed mix and add to it. I use fresh egg food with hand feeding formula mixed in it to up the protein. Also feed fresh greens from the garden and lawn when in season.
Debbie
long time breeder of lady gouldians:
Green
SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
Pastel (Yellow)
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by 30 Seconds to Bob » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:42 pm

Liz,
Most of what I posted applies to the seasonal needs of the canary. I'm not sure about other finch varieties, so maybe others who follow yearly variations in protein cycle diet for other birds may want to chime in as well. I have adopted it for my javas, and other than the canaries being a few month ahead in everything, it seems to be working well.
I don't change my basic seed mixtures. They get the same staple seed year round. I do however ADD more nutritional seeds during the times of conditioning and breeding. These come in the form of conditioning foods, dark oily seeds, extra hemp and nyger. I do this for both breeding and non breeding birds. Their bodies still tell them they should be doing certain things at certain times of the year, and they still need it for the moult. Again, take this with a grain of salt as it applies perfectly to canaries. I imagine it should somehow apply to other finches, with the schedule just being altered a bit. Hope this helps. Bob
3 canaries
2 orange cheeked waxbill finches
2 java finches, 1 split to normal, 1 white
2 bourke parakeets
1 american staffordshire/american pit bull terrier
1 boston/jack russel terrier mix
6 adopted stray cats
2 adult, 1 young leopard gecko
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by finchmix22 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:25 am

I use a basic finch seed mix and supplement as they rotate through the seasons. Similar to debbie's cycle. I add veggies and eggfood with handfeeding formula during breeding and molting. In the winter, they get less veggies, but the see remains the same throughout the year. I never used Mike Fidler's sprouted seed mixes, but I assume those are best for the breeding cycles and for fledges/juveniles. I give all my finches the same cycle and food varieties. That way their bodies are as close to a natural cycle as possible, whether breeding or not.
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by Acelin_Wolf » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:39 pm

Wow I've never even thought of all this. I've been feeding the same diet basically...all the time. I've never considered seasons.

Is this an acceptable variety:

*more egg/protein in the summer
*more veggies in summer
*same pellets/seeds all year round
*sprouting seeds in the summer

Cuz that seems like a boring fall/winter! Lol.

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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by finchmix22 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:56 pm

I still give my finches some veggies year round, but I choose seasonal veggies, to coincide with the naturally occuring one during each season. I don't give as much veggies in the fall and winter. They're more like a weekly treat, but during spring and summer, they are daily veggies.
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by Perfex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:28 pm

I really liked the Birds R Us blends and are disappointed that they are no longer available. Still trying other substitutes, any suggestions???
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by debbie276 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:54 pm

Wow I've never even thought of all this. I've been feeding the same diet basically...all the time. I've never considered seasons.
The main reason to cut back on the high protein foods is to allow hormone flow to cease, allowing the gonads and ovaries to shrink and rest, taking them out of breeding mode. Another desirable effect of the austerity period is the burning of excess body fat, fat birds have a difficult time breeding successfully.
Debbie
long time breeder of lady gouldians:
Green
SF Pastel (SF Yellow)
Pastel (Yellow)
Blue
SF Pastel Blue (SF Yellow Blue)
Pastel Blue (Yellow Blue)

GREAT articles on avian lighting:
https://mickaboo.org/confluence/downloa ... ummary.pdf
http://www.naturallighting.com/cart/sto ... sc_page=56

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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by henrietta » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:17 pm

So it seems like my statement at the end of my post "OH also, I am just talking about SEEDS" is pretty much wrong. You can add extra seeds in the summer, but mostly it seems the easiest way to tweak their diet is in the extra supplements/veggies/eggs?

I'm glad I asked about this because through all my searching I was seeing "the austerity diet," "the maintenance diet", etc and I was imagining completely different bags of seeds for each part of the year. Then I found out there WERE completely different seed blends for sale for different times of the year lol and I had that stuck in my head ever since. Just upping specific types of veggies, eggfood, and sprouts in the summer seems like a very easy thing to do.

I am much less confused, thanks again everyone!! I'm so happy people commented, despite my ridiculously long post >.< I tend to give too much information, just to make sure, but then I don't think anybody reads my novel, so it doesn't help anyway . . . lol!!
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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by Rox » Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:36 am

Henrietta

Just wanted to thank you for a very interesting thread. I've been wondering the same thing and now have an answer :D
Roxanne

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Re: Questions about the yearly protein cycle diet

Post by henrietta » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:22 am

Rox wrote: Just wanted to thank you for a very interesting thread. I've been wondering the same thing and now have an answer :D
awww thanks Rox! I am glad it helped someone else out as well! :) I know I always learn a lot reading other people's questions and the replies!!
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