Budgie Problems

[Nerien]

Lily, my albino hen, had a prolapse at the very end of July. I managed to save her. She has been living alone in a cage in a bedroom, because if I put her back in the huge flight with the other dozen or so budgies, I am sure the same thing would happen again (it's mixed males and females, and she had an overly devoted boyfriend).

Lily has been lonely for the last three months, and taken to hanging out upside down from the top of her cage much of the time. Because of this, her entire bottom has been stained poop yellow-green-tan, but her poops in the bottom of the cage look normal, white with black, formed, normal. But Lily has looked healthy all along, except for her upside-down poop stained problem.

So, finally, last Friday, we were out and at a pet store, and they had budgies on sale for $10. We had talked about getting Lily a new companion, because we didn't feel right about taking someone else from the freedom of the big flight to be her companion in the much smaller cage. A new bird would never have experienced the big flight, so they wouldn't be missing anything. We had almost gotten a friend for Lily several times, but didn't, when we saw the $10 birds, we took it as a sign and got one, making sure it was also female.

So Buttercup came home to be Lily's companion. She is in a very small cage next to Lily, so they could get familiar with each other before Buttercup goes in with Lily.

So the next morning I go in to check on them, and Lily is hunched over on her perch, head hanging kind of low, looking like she's falling asleep, only her head is sagging lower every time her eyes close, lower than her shoulders, she looks like she's about to collapse. Later on, Lily is sitting there looking puffed up. Later still, Lily looks fine. Next time, Lily looks ill again. Her bottom looks dirty and ragged, more so than it ever did during her lonely upsidedown days. Today, it looks like a touch of blood staining in a couple spots down her tail feathers. She's really being flighty and won't let me get a good look, and I need help to lift down her cage and catch her, so I can't find out what's going on until tonight. Also saw her once sitting there gagging and retching like she was trying to throw up, or get something out of her throat, over and over, but nothing came up.

Buttercup is now still in the small cage for her fourth day. Lily is suddenly looking sick as soon as we finally get her a companion. Oh geez. Buttercup would obviously love to get in with Lily, but Lily now doesn't look like she cares so much.

I can put Buttercup in a larger cage if I rearrange some stuff to make room for it, and they could sit side by side each in their own cage (Visions Large cages). But how do I figure out what is wrong with Lily when her poop looks normal, she doesn't actually throw up, other than the messy-colored bottom there's no clear indication of what's wrong? Is there a good general antibiotic or something I should try because she may have been carrying an infection since the prolapse? At the time, I did treat her with the only antibiotic I could get locally, ornacyn.

[cindy]

Honestly, in my opinion...hookbills can carry a few different diseases and each new hookbill brought into the home should be isolated and quarantined to make sure they are not hiding illness. I would not have placed the cages near each other just quiet yet. Nor in Lily's stress state I would not add a new bird near or in with her.

The prolapse even though pushed in does not mean she may not have complications down the road. I have seen birds with prolapse pushed back look great for a while then go downhill rapidly. the fact she has a messy bottom leads me to think that she has/may have some complications associated with prolapse.

I would remove the new bird to another room, keep her quiet add a heat lamp and possibly consider a vet visit at this time. I would even call Laraine at ladygouldian.com to see if she can suggest meds or some other course of action treatment wise. Try not to feel quilty about her lack of company but try to keep her well for as long as you can.

[debbie276]

I'm surprised you did not quarantine the new bird before putting her next to Lily. Could it be that Buttercup has shared some type of bug?

[Nerien]

Well....Lily was looking fine until we brought the new bird in, and then within just hours suddenly was not looking so well. Lily was obviously bored out of her skull and frustrated at living alone. The new bird and all the other birds in the cage in the store looked really good, we don't buy if we see even one "off" bird in the cage, which we know is no guarantee, but it does reduce chances.

So....we were figuring, since Lily and new bird Buttercup were going to live together in their own cage in their own room separate from every other bird in the house, we would put them together and they would either both live or both die IF Buttercup might be carrying something bad. Either way, problem solved. Not the best plan, I am a little ashamed to say, but sometimes you skip your best judgement, you know?

And if/when Lily died, as having the prolapse almost definitely means her life will be shorter, then Buttercup could join the rest of the flock in the big flight. I just didn't expect Lily to look like she was going to die the minute I brought her her new friend.

Their cages are next to each other right now, but not touching, there is a couple of inches between them. So airborne germs might have passed, but contact, food & waterborne would not.

Talked to Laraine about a month after the prolapse, she didn't think there was anything to treat, no clear indicators, and it had indeed seemed that Lily's dirty bottom was from hanging upside down all the time. Got Lily a mirror a few weeks ago, and as she then spent less time upside down, she was looking much less stained, being so snowy white every little thing shows on her, and she won't bathe in a bowl of water, I can spray her but it doesn't work nearly as well.

Will try Laraine again. Going to take pictures of bird and poops for her this time. Maybe I can get pictures of her bottom by sticking the camera in the cage, get a look where I can't see from outside. It has been three months since the prolapse, and Lily was looking strong and healthy and frustrated and lonely. Just hard to believe she's suddenly failing the very day I get her a companion.

If Lily does go down, Buttercup will indeed continue to live in the back bedroom for an appropriate quarantine before joining the rest of the flock.

[cindy]

Some disease in hookbills can be passed by dander, saliva, sneezing. I would move the other cage away from Lily. Her immune system and strength are somewhat compromised from the prolapse and what ever complication could have resulted from it.

Hookbills like finches can hide illness and can look fine but be carries, always best to quarantine before adding to the flock. With bigger parrots a vet visit before going home and a quarantine until results come in from the initial vet visit tests before adding to the flock, especially if you are uncertain of their origin.

Hope Lily recover for you.

[Finnie]

Not the best plan, I am a little ashamed to say, but sometimes ...

It's not the worst plan, either.

When I started out, I had only budgies. No other types of birds. I will admit that once in a while, when I got a single new bird, I would "sacrifice" a bird from my own flock to go and be a quarantine friend for the new bird.

Now I know that's a "No No", but I have found that budgies from the big chain pet stores are almost invariably healthy. But my thinking was that sometimes a new single budgie from a pet store goes through several days of a fear period where they don't eat. However, if they have another bird with them, they are reassured, and they adjust better and begin eating right away. To me it's a benefit that outweighs the risk. (And then if an issue did crop up, the two birds would be expected to ride it out together, but that never happened.)

So I think your plan had sound reasoning behind it.

Perhaps the excitement of the new bird brought on Lily's relapse, if that's what it is. But if the new bird had brought in a disease, it wouldn't have affected Lily instantly. I think you should move Buttercup to the other side of the room just in case whatever Lily has is contagious, though.

[cindy]

Virus amongst birds can spread quickly as they do in humans.

Buying birds from say PetSmart, their birds look rough and not in the best condition. Petco has started carrying keets again but I would still quarantine them for 2 to 4 weeks before adding them to the flock. Quarantining birds is not always a guarantee (see articles below) but it is still best to do.

interesting articles on budgie diseases and health.
http://www.tri-statebudgie.org/bakerstudy.html
http://www.petplace.com/birds/10-most-c ... page1.aspx

[Nerien]

those are interesting articles, thanks.

Buttercup (and Lily) and not joining the flock. Buttercup is joining Lily in forced isolation, essentially permanent quarantine, in a separate room which happens to be at the opposite end of the house, because Lily cannot rejoin the flock. Lily has not looked sick, her poops look normal, she has not gone light, she has had no respiratory symptoms, she eats, she drinks, she plays, she is loud and obnoxious and obviously lonely and bored, having come from a giant flight and 13 companions, including her bonded mate Bluebell (tho he was really more of an obsessive, overcontrolling, jealous boyfriend). For three months she has lived alone, in isolation, at the opposite end of the house, fat and sassy. So we got her a companion, to stay in isolation with her, and suddenly, within hours, she doesn't look so good, not respiratory, guts or prolapse related, with no actual physical contact with the other bird. We did not risk the entire flock by not properly "quarantining" Buttercup. Only these two birds, alone, in isolation, where they are going to stay.

The first article does give some interesting information on things that might have been compromised considering Lily's prolapse event and the risk of some kind of infection being introduced or allowed to flourish with what she went through. Going to look into ordering some stuff later today, worth a try. No use going to the "avian" vet, while she claims she does birds and has training (she also does small exotics like our hedgehog), she let our budgie Frost suffer from what I discovered, too late, was simply sour crop for a year and a half before he died, with no idea why he just kept getting sick as soon as the antibiotics she kept prescribing, were done.

[Finnie]

Virus amongst birds can spread quickly as they do in humans.

Yes, but the virus still has to have an incubation period before the symptoms appear. If Lily got sick the same day the new bird arrived, then IF she has a virus, she must have already been incubating it before Buttercup arrived.

Not arguing against quarantine by any means. For all its limitations, it is definitely important. Just wanted to cut Nerien some slack and give encouragement, because we all have the right to make our decisions based on what we think the situation warrants.

[cindy]

Ruth is trying to figure out what happened with Lily, frankly (as mentioned earlier) I feel the fact she had prolapse she most likely has some underlying internal issues possibly associated with it. Lily's already delicate conditions could leave her a bit predisposed to viruses and bacterial infections.

I would use strict caution in introducing any new bird new or in with her. For now always go to Lily first to feed, water and clean then the new bird not visa versa. This will further prevent anything the new bird may carry being transferred to Lily.

Viruses depending on what they are have different incubation times as they in do humans, dogs, cats.

The one article above makes a very profound statement...

"Quarantining newly acquired birds is good practice, but it falls far short of the degree of protection needed. A bird could be harboring trichomoniasis, pssitacosis, and AGY, all three, and still pass a three or four week quarantine with flying colors."

Even with strict quarantine methods birds can still pass disease onto other birds if they carry it.

I would advise a vet for Lily, even though your other bird passed away and you feel you do not want to return. The course of antibiotics for Frost may not have been long enough or there were other underlying issues with the bird that could have lead to it's passing. Lily on the other hand may need a strong antibiotic or treatment than an over the counter medication, especially since her internal organ was exposed to the air, possible bacteria.

[Nerien]

Just an update--after another week, Lily was looking better, Buttercup was still stuck in the small cage, so we put together the Visions Large Double cage, rigged it with perches and toys and swing, and put them both in together. After all, we got Buttercup to go in with Lily knowing the pair would either "sink or swim", but do it together, no more lonely bird.

By the end of the day, they were best buddies snuggled together.

Lily is no longer stained from her poop, despite still liking to hang upside down from the top of the cage. She is keeping herself clean and preened. Turns out what I thought was a touch of blood, was indeed, but from her picking at feathers from molting. Might have been why she was looking poorly at the time, too, maybe loneliness had her picking and biting at her feathers when she got itchy from new pins (saw some chewed off ones in the bottom when we cleaned it, white feathers on white papertowel so we had missed it at the time).

Lily and Buttercup play and go through all kinds of antics during the day. I go down the hallway to the bedroom where they live, and when they realize I'm there they both freeze with this "we weren't doing nuthin' wrong" kind of look on their faces, like little kids caught in the act. Not a panic or fear kind of thing (ahhhhh! human!!!!), an oops! she sees what we're doing! kind of thing, so funny.

So, it seems that Lily's biggest health problem was loneliness from being isolated from her flock. She had spent almost her whole life as part of a flock of 15-17, with a bonded mate, up until the prolapse. Maybe when we first brought Buttercup in, so close yet inaccessible still, that did stress her out, not from the presence but from the distance, on top of the molting as well.

Lily and Buttercup will live together in their own cage in the bedroom, away from everyone else out in the livingroom/diningroom for as long as they last. If Lily goes first, Buttercup will get treated for any potential problems (depending on if there are any symptoms to go by in either bird when/if it happens) and then get integrated into the flock. Otherwise, the two of them seem to be quite happy together in their own little world. Mission accomplished.

[Colt]

Glad your two little girls are good friends now and she's feeling better.

[30 Seconds to Bob]

So glad that they are doing well, especially Lilly and how you were able to handle the prolapse. I doubt that a vet could have done any better. Awesome job! Bob

[beachbird]

Wonderful to hear. I have been hoping for good news about Lilly. Most of the time Mom's know best!

[Zebrafincher]

How sweet! Glad to see they're happy!