Egg Binding??

[Sally]

There have been many studies about the benefits of vitamin D3. It is true that it is beneficial, even necessary, but as with any supplement, you have to be careful about overdosing. It is hard to find any information on how much is too much.

This article by Robert Black, a highly-respected expert in the United States, explains the role of vitamin D in the diets of our birds:

http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/features_vitamind.php

The following article states that for parrot-like birds, a dose of 600 iu of D3 per pound of dry pelleted feed is sufficient. I would assume that smaller finches would require a much smaller amount.

http://2ndchance.info/birdsvitd.htm

When adding any supplements to the diet of your birds, you always want to be aware of what vitamins/minerals are included in the supplements. You can overdose your birds by giving them multiple supplements.

The light bulbs that are being sold today as 'sunshine' or 'daylight' are not going to benefit your birds healthwise, IMO. The more expensive avian specialty bulbs are much better. I do use the inexpensive 'sunshine' bulbs from Lowe's, but I don't expect them to do anything more than illuminate my cages well.

As far as increasing production, we all love to get good-sized clutches, but keep in mind that egg laying is hard on the hens, and then the raising of each clutch is even harder on both parents. In the wild, birds do not raise more than 2 or 3 clutches per year. They may have more clutches, but they are destroyed by predators, or storms that knock the nests out of trees, or any number of catastrophy that causes them to have to start all over. We can learn much from Mother Nature.

IMO, five large clutches is certainly possible, but is it desirable? I have let my birds have four clutches under certain circumstances--one or more clutches were infertile, the new hatchlings were tossed, etc. I will only let them raise three clutches, and then they are rested till the next breeding season.

[dutch]

Sally....I agree sally back to back clutches is too much on the birds health....so next season I wont be allowing back to back clutches...this time I will give them a rest between each clutch of chicks raised

The only reason I let them have 5 clutches was because the chicks and parents were in perfect condition for the last 6 months.....not a single loss in 6 months is brilliant!

[Olympic_Aiairies]

Dutch that's a lot of clutches in a row and a lot of eggs per clutch. 6 eggs would be the limit that I'd let one pair raise and even then I prefer only 4 eggs per clutch so as not to wear out the parents. I also don't breed back to back. I do three clutches a year per pair with a month break between each clutch.

My hen was a pet store bird who was in rough shape when I got her. I thought she was ready to breed but either I was wrong or she was genetically predisposed to larger eggs which is why she bound.

12000iui of vit D for a finch seems extremely high. Vit D is a fat soluble vitamin and if people need to be monitored on a dose over 10000iui I can't imagine a small finch needs that much.

[Sally]

dutch There is so little information out there on dosage of D3, even on Vetafarm's website, so I decided to contact them. They sent me a data sheet on Soluvite D Breeder. It contains 2,500,000 iu of D3 in a kilogram, which works out to 2,500 iu in one gram. The directions say to add 5g to 5L of water, or 1g in 1L of water, so that is 2,500 iu in 1L of water, or 2.5 iu in 1 ml. I can only guess at how much my birds drink each day, but I doubt it is much more than 30 ml per cage of 2 birds, possibly 60 ml. So now I can conclude that my birds would be getting between 75 iu and 150 iu of D3 per day per pair of birds.. That sounds reasonably in line with what is recommended for parrot-type birds (600 iu). Of course, Soluvite D Breeder is about 10 times stronger than Soluvite D, so that product would supply only 7.5 iu to 15 iu per pair of birds. I wish manufacturers would do this math for us, it would help when deciding how much D3 our birds are getting.

For those who are feeding eggs on a daily basis, that would supply even more D3, but my head spins at even the thought of trying to figure out how much egg (yolk) a pair eats each day, and from that figuring out how much D3 they are getting from that egg. I give up!

[dutch]

All I known is the soluvite is doing its job....perfect birds and perfect parents

40 nests of chicks for 6 month's straight.....not a single loss
The numbers and results say it all....soluvite d breeder is brilliant

[Olympic_Aiairies]

Sally those numbers make a lot more sense to me! Besides vitamins when they are laying my birds also get access to free run eggs which will also contain D3.

Again I think she bound because of the size of the egg she was trying to pass which most likely was genetic? Who knows. I'm still sad regardless. she was a sweet bird.

[MiaCarter]

Sally those numbers make a lot more sense to me! Besides vitamins when they are laying my birds also get access to free run eggs which will also contain D3.

Again I think she bound because of the size of the egg she was trying to pass which most likely was genetic? Who knows. I'm still sad regardless. she was a sweet bird.

Agreed. I can't imagine a tiny bird needing tens of thousands of iu of D3, but as Sally said, it would be nice if the manufacturers did the math for us!

I believe you're correct -- that the egg size would largely be a result of genetics, but of course, environmental factors like nutrition, temperature, health, etc. would have an impact too. I think it was likely a perfect storm of factors for your girl.

Interesting study on the impact of temperature/climate on egg size. It's a pay article, but the abstract has the basics:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 9X08000325

This is interesting too. It's for chickens, but I believe the same basic factors would have an impact cross-species:
http://poultryrearing.blogspot.com/2013 ... -size.html

At the end of the day, you lost a wonderful little girl and I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry you didn't have a chance to save her. (But on the flip side, at least she didn't suffer long.)
We can only provide good nutrition and a good, healthy environment, act when we can and hope for the best.

[Corkysgirl]

About the full spectrum light, I have to say I use full spectrum bulbs, really good ones for my finches. I lived in a basement apartment for a while with no light at all a few years ago and some of my birds are in a room with one window, no direct light at all. My two finches are 10 years 3 months old, so I really don't think they would do so well if the bulb didn't at least give them a good amount of vitamin D3. Their diets are good but I really count on the bulbs for their health. I've never given them vitamin supplements. Just saying this so you can use it as part of your research to form an informed opinion about them. I did though put them on top of the cages so they were very concentrated. I'm so sorry about the loss of your hen. That IS a very large egg! I've had birds lay extremely tiny ones, but never so large.

[dutch]

Corkysgirl.....I have read all your topics....and you have had a few health problems with your birds that can be linked to lack of vitamin d3.....
You mention feather problems....hard swollen abdomens in some of your birds that passed away

I really do believe that lights can't give your birds d3....

[Corkysgirl]

You could be very right Dutch. I'm always trying to learn anything I can. I wanted to mention my situation in case it helped with statistics. The feather issues that I remember were with a new bird that brought in scaly mites, and it was eliminated with S76. A more recent issue of pulling feathers, I treated all with Ronivet to be sure it wasn't amoebas when someone mentioned the possibility and Laraine said it wouldn't hurt. But I think it was just a mean bird doing it. It is a puzzle about the one bird that passed away from a hard abdomen suddenly. It could very well have been related to a D3 deficiency. I wish I had natural sunlight. What do you suggest to give for vitamin D3?

[dutch]

Corkysgirl......I had a few birds pass away with swollen abdomens.....all the vets found was yeast infections....they gave me medication....nothing worked I lost even more birds

In the end I did some research contacted another vet and mentioned the lack of natural sunlight in the avairy

The vet said that could be causing the problems

Wild bill suggested soluvite d.......I purchased it

After 2 years finally all birds are healthy and breeding

Soluvite d breeder is designed for indoor birds that lack d3

[cindy]

Sally, I use a pelleted diet, eggfoods, seed and to my soft food mixes I add AviVita gold powdered vitamins, mineral and amino acids. It contains D3 and Calcium

I have also used Cal-D-solve (calcium, D3 and magnesium) in soft foods for egg laying hens, it can be mixed in water but I find it unreliable since certain species such as budgies do not consume large amounts of water...so vitamins are best but in soft foods for them. I do the same for my grasskeets and all my finches.

[cindy]

You could be very right Dutch. I'm always trying to learn anything I can. I wanted to mention my situation in case it helped with statistics. The feather issues that I remember were with a new bird that brought in scaly mites, and it was eliminated with S76. A more recent issue of pulling feathers, I treated all with Ronivet to be sure it wasn't amoebas when someone mentioned the possibility and Laraine said it wouldn't hurt. But I think it was just a mean bird doing it. It is a puzzle about the one bird that passed away from a hard abdomen suddenly. It could very well have been related to a D3 deficiency. I wish I had natural sunlight. What do you suggest to give for vitamin D3?

Corkygirl...just curious do you feed any type of grit, gravel, charcoal? That can cause impaction if gorged on. I had a friend loose a bird recently, it had hardness in the crop, an necropsy was done on the gouldian (I saw this after it was done, it was at my vet where my daughter works)...the crop and abdomen were impacted with charcoal with little seed in the crop or gut. I apparently gorged on the charcoal, the bird may have had an underlying condition which may have caused it to gorge.

[Corkysgirl]

Thanks Dutch! I just looked on Lady Gouldian Finch website, found it. That's interesting about the yeast and swollen belly. My 10 year old is on a continual antibiotic regiment per Laraine because she's had an eye infection that just won't let go. The first day I stop them, it's back with a vengeance. That's a LONG story! I'm surprised she doesn't have a serious yeast problem even with probiotics. I do think though that maybe the D3 might just give her the push to win the battle with this eye infection. She's such a fighter! About the swollen belly issue, wish you could have seen it. It reminds me of....you know the ninja turtle cartoons, how they had the hard yellow shell over their belly? That's what her belly was like. The swelling WAS this thick, yellow/orange shell like thickness, not swelling from within, but without, with a line under the skin up above it, black. I thought maybe twisted bowel. I said back along it was distended, but it was really "extended" outward. I had thought she was poisoned because of issues we're having with someone breaking in. Just not sure. We're 75 miles from the nearest avian vet so I never got a necropsy done. Cindy, no I never gave any of my birds gravel grit, or charcoal.

[dutch]

Corkysgirl........my birds had the same swelling as yours

With the soluvite I add it to the water at 6 am.....then at the end of day before night I give them plain water...5 days a week