parrot finch intermittently on back fluttering wings

[Smurf]

This morning just after feeding her i noticed a parrot finch hen fluttering on cage floor, she was back perching as normal before i got a look at what was happening, this happened a second time when feeding them in afternoon but was over quickly again, this evening it happened a third time again after feeding and i got to see what was happenning, she was on her back fluttering her wings francticly trying to right herself, i picked her up, holding her upright and it stopped, after a few seconds of sitting on my hand she then flew to perch acting normaly again.
She is paired/breeding with a second clutch of 5 chicks about to fledge nest, the cock shows absolutely no signs of doing this and it only started today.

They have just finished a course of ronidazole today which i treat all my birds with every 6 months but never had anything like this happen before, i don't think it could be ronidazole related. The only other med the're treated with is moxidectin but this pair havn't had treatment yet with last treatment being 6 months ago.

Any ideas as to what's wrong ? i'm thinking it might be something to do with her panicking due to disturbance when being fed but it never happened before today so i'm a bit puzzled ?

[Corkysgirl]

I suspect it is a seizure. Here is a link with info that might be helpful. I hope it helps. http://beautyofbirds.com/seizures.html

[MiaCarter]

Corkysgirl -- Absolutely agreed.

A seizure was my thought before I read about the ronidazole.
After I read that part, I'm virtually certain this is seizure activity. I've had an epileptic bird and this is precisely what occurred. I'll see if I can find one of my videos to show you.

Google ronidazole and seizures and you'll see many animals suffer from this as a side effect.

It doesn't matter if she's been okay with the drug in the past.
Sensitivities and allergies can develop at any time in life.

I've seen this first hand. My pug was fine with rabies vaccinations and monthly flea medications for the first few years of life. Now flea meds send him into seizures. And the rabies vaccine triggers anaphylaxis and uncontrollable seizures, unresponsive to meds for 6 solid weeks (we no longer vaccinate him due to this.)

So even if she was okay before, she may be unable to tolerate it now.
It's also possible she got a higher than safe dosage -- always a possibility with meds that are given on food or in water.

For now, move her to a hospital cage, offer a heat lamp and remove all high perches. She needs to stay low to the ground because they can (and will) fall like a brick, which can cause serious injury if they land improperly.
Also remove all bowls of water.
If she can fit inside the water cup, this is also a drowning danger.
If she drinks from a water tube, I'd leave this as the only water source.

If you only have large water cups, I'd order a water trough (see this page, about half way down: http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/shop-cage-sw.php)

In the interim, keep the water levels really low in the water cup - like 1/3 of an inch deep or offer a saucer of water.
It just needs to be shallow enough to prevent drowning.
I'd also offer pedialyte or a homemade electrolyte solution.

Treat her as though she's sick, as seizures are very frightening for the bird and this is stressful. Stress = weakened body and a vulnerability to illness.

It should pass on its own if it's due to the medication. Hopefully within a couple days. If it's still occurring by the time Monday rolls around, I'd make a vet appointment. She may need seizure medications if it doesn't pass quickly (and it may not be due to meds; it may be epilepsy, which can have a sudden onset.)
I'd also assess her access to any possible toxins.

[Colt]

Wow, Mia. That is some really good information for everyone to know about regarding the medication and its side effects.

[Sally]

I don't give any medication routinely. I only give medication if I suspect a problem, and then I hesitate to give anything unless I know the diagnosis. Giving meds only as a preventative can actually cause more problems than prevent IMO.

[MiaCarter]

Colt - Glad you found it helpful!
I sense another blog post coming on! LOL

Another thought: The meds that are most apt to cause a seizure (not only in birds, but in dogs, cats and other pets too) are those containing a pesticide or another drug designed to kill organisms. (Antibiotics aside)

So mite medications with drugs like permethrin and anti-protozoal meds like Ronidazole tend to place pets most at risk for a neurological reaction.
Make no mistake: These drugs are toxins. It's just given at a dosage that's sufficient to kill the target organisms, but not the bird. But if your bird was the size of a mite, he'd be dead too.

The bird described by Smurf was failing, so this would be a grand mal seizure.
But there are other types too, such as petit mal seizures, complex partial seizures, etc.
So while most are really familiar with the flailing of a grand mal seizure, there are other seizure manifestations such as uncontrollable repetitive motions and staring off into space.

Releasing a dropping is another very common occurrence in birds experiencing a grand mal; mammals will also lose bowel/bladder control. Regurtitation can occur on rare occasion if the bird just ate; mammals are more apt to vomit.

I should also note that in birds who are epileptic and seize on a regular basis, you can sometimes allow them to have higher perches. Most seizures are preceded by an odd feeling called an aura. A bird (or other animal) that has seizures often can learn to recognize this feeling and drop down to the cage bottom to prepare for the seizure.
I've had an epileptic dog who wasn't totally controlled with meds. He would always go to the corner of our bedroom about 20-30 seconds before a seizure. We ultimately put up a pet bed there with "bumpers" on the wall. It was his special seizure bed. His littermate brother would always sit near him, growling at any other dogs who would approach. He instinctively knew his brother was vulnerable.

It's also essential to ensure the other animals are okay with the seizures, whether it's a bird or a dog, cat, ferret, etc.
You don't want the poor baby getting attacked by a frightened cage mate or house mate.

Yeah, I need to write this all in an article! Blogging is so addictive!

[Smurf]

Many thanks for the replies especially Mia, after reading comments and googling ronidazole/birds/seizures it definately seems to be a possible overdose, probably partly due to her drinking more than normal while feeding chicks in nest, as she's rearing 5 chicks i'd be worried about removing her to a hospital cage in case the cock gave up feeding them, their drinkers are the water fountains with deep trough so there's no chance of her drowning although i will refrain from giving her access to a bath until hopefully the seizures stop ( she had a quick seizure today but a very brief one ).

I'll keep a close eye on her over weekend

[MiaCarter]

Smurf --- That makes total sense. She drank more water than usual due to the babies and got more of the drug than she would have otherwise.

Hopefully she should be okay.

I would arrange/remove the cage's perches so they're configured in a way where she could fall off of one and land on the floor without hitting another perch on the way down.
I might also cover the floor with a few layers of paper towels. It not only makes for a safe landing, but if you have a grate floor, it prevents her from getting a wing or leg stuck in the grate and broken due to jerking while seizing.

Best of luck! Keep us updated! It should pass within a day or two.

[Corkysgirl]

I was reading Mia's response about the ronidazole, and was confused until I went back and read the post. I never saw that paragraph. And, yes as Sally said there is no reason to give a medication routinely. If there is no illness, why treat? If there is an illness, treat promptly...as they can cause more harm than good. Great info from MiaCarter!
@Smurf I had a bird drown in a bath. It was only many months later when I saw her offspring doing this odd stare and little tiny head shake thing just like her mother used to do, (she did it three days ago again when she was egg bound) that I realize she is having tiny seizures. I suspected her juvenile was riding her back in the bath...something he always would do...jump on her back while flapping his wings and stay there 4-5 seconds or so. He still could have done that while she was having a seizure in the bath, and she aspirated water. It is my suspicion. I'm happy Mia mentioned that...and all the other helpful info.

[Smurf]

Just an update on parrot finch hen, her ronidazole treatment finished on fri 27/6 which was when her first seizures occurred with similar seizures on sat 28/6, on sunday 29/6 and monday 30/6 she had a tiny seizure which was more like slipping off perch and then she nearly immediately hopped back on to perch, there have been no seizures since then and she's thankfully back to her normal self.


I'm very relieved that she's ok and would definately say the cause was an adverse reaction/overdose of the medication, i'll be thinking twice in future before using any medication as a preventative no matter how safe it's supposed to be.

[Corkysgirl]

I'm so happy to hear your bird came through this and is doing well! Yes, it does sound like it was an adverse reaction to the medication. It's true, just like humans, some birds can be fine and other have a reaction to the very same medications. It's also true, as you said, that it's a good idea not to treat preventative...much better to wait for symptoms and treat when an issue arises instead.