Losing my mind - mama aggressive to juvies. Help? :(

[lyswood]

Two days ago I moved 5 month old juvies back in with their parents, as advised by hobby breeders here on the forum in a thread from a couple of months ago. I shouldn't have separated them in the first place, so this is not ideal, but seemed a better solution than separating the bonded parents into two same-sex cages and we don't have room for 3. Here's what we went with:

Mama hen is VERY ticked and is chasing the babies and having fits of flying that seem to be worsening as time goes by. I did not expect this at all - she's very mellow. I was concerned for her mate, who gets more stressed with change. He's doing great, as are the babies (when she's not chasing them).

For the last hour she's be constantly flying - very agitated - and will chase any baby she sets eyes on, especially one red-headed male. At least earlier in the day she would calm a bit and sit beside them, but now she's really in a state.

It's just chasing and a bit of beak-jousting, though last night she grabbed 3 different babies who landed next to her and hung on. Terrifying to see, but they are all fine. And they keep landing next to her, which seems idiotic, but no one has been hurt. I've been sitting next to the cage all day though, because I'm afraid of things escalating. I realize they need to establish their pecking order and maybe this will be okay in another day or two, but I'm going crazy. I hate seeing her this upset, and yet she's really making me mad.

My timing is horrible - everyone is hormonal and this is probably why she's so upset. I get it and I feel guilty as heck, but this is the earliest I could have done this - was waiting for two babies to molt (they still haven't...gave up...they're likely stuck) and was working too much to have sufficient time to monitor them. And clearly they need to be monitored.

I was spraying her with a water bottle when she got too rowdy, which worked if only momentarily, but she's over the shock of it and doesn't seem to mind anymore.

I praise her when she's sitting peacefully near her babies, but again - a finch is not a dog and probably doesn't learn that way.

Is there any hope that another day or two will settle her down I considered moving her to her own cage for a day or two to hopefully re-adjust her attitude, but that sounds very stressful for all - would rather avoid it.

Are there other methods I could try to calm her? Something in the water? Rescue Remedy for finches?

I'm reading the forum and will continue to do so. Would love any thoughts in the meantime.

Thank you in advance,
Malyssa

[MariusStegmann]

I clipped a centimeter off from a black headed canary's wings (both sides). He was chasing another canary continuously. It didn't stop him from doing it, but it surely slowed him down.

[MiaCarter]

Hmmm....that's not good.

Is there a nest in the cage?
If so, I'd remove it.
This could make her feel very defensive.

Generally, when you add birds to a cage, you should rearrange it to erase property lines. That allows them to redraw new property lines, eliminating much of the territorial aggression.

I might consider pulling her for a few days. Let everyone else settle in, so it's a more calm atmosphere. If they're on edge, it results in a nervous atmosphere that only worsens this sort of behavior.
Rearrange the cage a few hours before you return her.
If it's territorial aggression, which really seems to be the case, that should remedy the issue since she'll become the newcomer and there will be no territory for her to feel that she needs to defend.

If the issue persists, I would also consider whether the benefit of putting the juveniles back in this cage outweighs mom's sanity.

I wouldn't be spraying her or hovering if you don't normally hover. That's just apt to stress her more, compounding the situation.

I would not let them fight it out. If she's hanging on to them and pulling feathers, that's a concern, especially in juveniles who are right around moulting age. There's a good chance one or more of those juveniles will have blood feathers. If mom plucks one of those, they could bleed to death.

[wilkifam]

I agree with MiaCarter

Rearrange the cage completely, then put everyone in.

[lyswood]

Thank you for the replies - I hadn't thought about blood feathers - now I'm more nervous - lol. She grabbed them at bedtime so I'll watch closely then. She's more into chasing now - sometimes poking beaks, but they're to the point where they fly away from her and don't stay and fight, so maybe that's good. Hoping tonight they will just sleep on their long rope like they did the first night - no squabbles then.

I left for a bit and will leave again and see if that helps. Maybe leave the cam on and spy from downstairs.

This is a new cage for all of them - it's twice the size and while two perches and one dish on the left side are set up similar to their last cage, there isn't anything they should be territorial about since it's all new. They were only in it less than an hour before the babies started moving in.

Maybe my idea of easing the transition with a similar floor plan was bad. I'll move those things around - maybe take away that high perch that she's so possessive of and see what happens. She and her mate are up there preening now - she's fine with him and fine sometimes if she's busy eating or sitting alone on that perch.

There's definitely not a nest - trying to get them out of breeding condition at the moment - thought I did enough so they would never go into it, but alas. Still learning.

I feel like she needs a calming agent - wish there was something I spray at her to calm her down - lol.

[finchandlovebird]

If, as you said, you want them to breed, why did you put the juvies in with the pair? Do you have a divider with the cage, that you can keep the pair on one side & juvies on the other.
It's a nice, great cage by the way.

[lovezebs]

finchandlovebir
That looks like a lovely set up. How big is your flight cage? Just curiousity, nothing to do with topic.

As to your problem.
I just moved my Gouldian parents back into flight with their three Socie raised kids, who are almost finished weaning. Mom is fine, Dad was chasing everybody around, his own kids, the Societies, the Stars, and the juvi Parrot Finch as well. He only backs away from the Canary.

After a few hours though, things seem to have settled down. Everybody stuffed their faces, had numerous baths and are now napping or going quietly about their business.

I would leave them be for a bit. Give them a chance to figure things out for themselves. I think things will settle down on their own. I would NOT spray Mom or scold her, or make a big to do about this situation. She is already stressed as it is, so the spraying etc. is just going to stress her even more, which is not healthy and could be harmfull.

Hopefully things will calm down in the evening and night. If there is still a problem come morning, I would consider placing her in a cage on her own. I would put it close enough so that she can see her mate and get used to seeing and hearing her kids again without having them right in her face all the time. You also have to consider the kids, if they are undergoing their first molt, they REALLY don't need to be stressed like this.

Let us know how things are going.

~Elana~

[lyswood]

finchandlovebird Thank you. No dividers, unfortunately. I do not want them to breed again. The short version of the story is that when these chicks fledged, I moved them into another cage because it was crowded and the father seemed stressed. (they were all in a little 18x18x30 basic cage). I was going to switch everyone around when they feathered up, having all hens in one and all cocks in the other. When I posted questions regarding this on the forum, several people asked why I was separating a bonded pair (which was also concerning me...they really like each other and have been together two years). People suggested just keeping the family together, so after several go-arounds with that idea, I decided that might be best. Solves our space issue.

@lovezebs Thank you for your insight. The cage is about 31x30x19 or something. It's identical to another member here who said he leaves his families together - I cannot recall his name. They really do use the height of it, too, which I'm very pleased about. Ideally I wanted the long one but we just don't have the space. This seems to offer them enough room to get exercise while finding spots to escape one another if they need to.

@MiaCarter I think you may have nailed it. Though the cage is new to everyone, I had the top left quarter of it basically set up identically to their previous cage, so I think Mama assumed it was her home.

SOOO - as soon as I read the post, I removed that high perch that she was very possessive about, moved her bells to another spot in the cage, and added the babies' preening toy where the bells were. She was confused, but very quiet. It was almost an immediate transformation. Of course this is also the time of night where they rest and sing, which helps. She still chases a little but is not manic like she was and is having periods of rest between where she sits by the babies.

I watched them via cam for an hour or more and she was peaceable the entire time. About 15 minutes ago she got more active and started her chases again, but it seems calmer than before - still obnoxious but not as manic. Dunno. She'll sit with her babies and rest for long periods, then chase, then rest. I really hope she gets over this tomorrow, which will be day 3. If not, I'll have to try capturing her and put her in a timeout cage for a few days. Oy, I hope it doesn't come to that.

Afraid of bedtime, which is in a half hour or so. Babies always have a knockdown dragout match because two of them don't like being on the end of the line - might set her off again.

[lyswood]

Wow - bedtime was surprisingly uneventful!! The boys didn't fuss at all - lined right up and puffed out. Papa went to his branch, one hen chick went to the place she decided last night was 'her spot,' and the only trouble was the other hen chick and mama because the perch I removed is where they roosted last night. Eventually they settled and there was really no fighting, just a lot of flying around and confusion for a few moments, which is normal. Whew!

Praying that a non-chaotic bedtime and a restful night will lead to a peaceful day tomorrow.

[lyswood]

At first this morning, it seemed that she was more peaceable - wasn't chasing for a while, but then started in. I was going to let it go and let them figure it out, but then I saw her grab a baby in midair (just slightly - no harm done) and that made me nervous. I'm not home much of tomorrow and can't babysit them.

I caught her - have NO idea how - it went very easily and I'm still a little shocked. Made a drape with a slit in it to hang over that big door, stuck my hand through and a few minutes later, had her in hand. Even moved her to my other hand - I'm new to this catching thing so this was very cool - LOL. She bit me...love that feisty girl.

Anyway, she's in her new "timeout" cage for a couple of days - hoping she can go back Sunday or Monday - there's not a lot of room in that cage and she is NOT happy - chirping like mad for the last hour. It had to be done, though, and I'm praying it works and she'll be grateful to be back in the big house.

[MiaCarter]

Aw, that's a bummer.

I love it when finches bite. There's something so cute about this tiny little bird saying: "Back off! You're frightening me! I'll bite you! I mean business!"

Hopefully a couple days will give everyone else time to get adjusted.
When she returns, she'll be the newcomer, so she'll be in less of a position to dominate the others.
And hopefully, the kids will be settled in and it will be a calm, less tense environment.

Rearranging can definitely help. I would rearrange again right before you put her back in there in case any territories have formed.

Once she settles into her temp cage within a day or so, I might consider putting a baby in with her.
That may give them a chance to bond in a more neutral environment. If that works, you can try it with the others too.
Then, once she's reconnected with the lot, put her back in.

[lyswood]

MiaCarter That's a good idea - makes me very nervous (catching again, putting them in such a tiny cage together) but it's a good idea. I'm trying to figure out how to rearrange the big cage - everything is placed so well in there - yeeps. I'll think of something.

It was much calmer in the big cage today with Mama out of there, and even Mama settled down at resting time. But for most of the day she chirped - sometimes the girls would answer back. Maybe that will help her. I hope it works.

I feel terrible for them - the babies fight at bedtime something fierce. Tonight was no exception - was hoping it would be quiet like last night, but ugh. Papa wanted to get up there with them, but despite being a red head, he is a very peaceable and passive bird, so he wasn't willing to fight for a place. He went to his branch alone. And his woman is alone a few feet away.

I talk quietly to them and click and cluck and they settle down and close their eyes - it's very sweet. Hope they don't hate me. Papa did sing today for the first time since the move, so I think despite his steering clear of the babies most of the time, he's settling in. And their bickering is just - argh - but just what they do. Seems so violent and I hate it, but they just don't stop. It doesn't last long.

Thank you all again for your input - going to try to move Mama back on Sunday, I think, though maybe I'll put the cages butted against each other and watch reactions first, then move on Monday morning. I hate seeing them miserable. Poor babies.

I did get a cute snapshot of Mama Elaine today in her little cage. She's so sweet.

[MiaCarter]

That sounds like a good plan.
And if they still battle when you return her, you could pull all but one of the babies.
Leave one in there to bond, then once they're all re-acquainted, add another and then the other.
It could just be that several at once is just too much.

It's odd, as gouldians are usually so calm and peaceful.
I've rarely seen them involved in conflict, though they're never one to be a pushover. That's for sure!

Mama is very lovely! She looks like an Elaine!
I've got three babies myself and I'm dying to see how they color up! They're just barely starting to form the edges of the black masks.

[lyswood]

MiaCarter Fun!! I still have two who appear to be stuck in the molt - waiting to see if the little hen will have a black head. She seems to have black where the other hen doesn't, so I wonder. It's so fun to see the coloring and be surprised - genetics are so confusing, but I learned a lot about my pair when one of the male chicks had a white breast. It's all so cool.

Hope it doesn't come to adding one baby at a time - yikes. They're settled in there...would feel strange to pull them. I agree that they're usually so peaceful - I really can't believe that she's having this reaction. I never once gave a thought to her feelings because she's so sweet and adaptable. I was concerned for her worrisome little mate, who gets so stressed about everything but at the same time has been through several cage mates and changes and perseveres through it all. They're both very smart - hoping they understand this temporary change on some level. I feel like such an evil wingless biped.

I just noticed in your sig that you have a min pin - we do too - maybe I've said that before lol. OMG they are fun little creatures. Mine "clucks" at me when she wants to be covered with a blanket - she's snoring next to me now.

Would love one day to have as many different little birdie icons as some of you folks - working on the hubby. Had a cockatiel, a white parakeet, a Pacifica Parrotlet and a love bird my mother-in-law rescued from a tree outside her house. Now I think I'm finch obsessed. Owl finches are so gorgeous - would love to have some of them some day.

[MiaCarter]

lyswood -- I'm dying for a pair of owl finches myself! They're so lovely. They've always been among my favorites!

Indeed, I'm on a finch craze for certain!
I'm dying for owls, stars, javas and lavendars.

I'd love to get another big bird in the near future. Perhaps a middle-aged African Grey or perhaps a conure. Really love conures.

I do have a min pin! She's wonderful! So very fresh and sassy and a total love bug. In the morning, she'll plop herself down on your chest and she'll start wagging her nub and nestling against your cheeks. It's the sweetest thing ever.
There are two breeds -- pugs and min pins. I'll never be without one. Ever. (Though Yorkies are a close second! They're freshness on a stick!)

I can't wait to see how my gouldians turn out! It's exciting as I have no idea how they'll come out, as this is their first clutch and the parents were aviary bred so no idea on their parentage and any splits.
The parents are actually on a second clutch, so more coming too! I can't wait to have a big cage filled with gouldians, with lots of lovely flowers and greenery. It'll be gorgeous!

I'm sure your guys will adapt quickly and once they do, they'll be happier for it. Nearly all birds seem happier when they have more birds to socialize with. (Of course, there's the antisocial, put-me-with-a-mate-and-nobody-else type, but they seem to be fairly uncommon in the very social finch world.)