Losing my mind - mama aggressive to juvies. Help? :(

[lovezebs]

It's odd that your babies are fighting and squabbling. My three get along really well. They will occasionally even cuddle together on the perch and sleep that way. Three little green lumps side by side, heads tucked looking like a little decoration.

~Elana~

[lyswood]

LOL Our min pin behaves exactly the same way - they're such sweet little things - we're hooked! She gives hugs - when you ask her to, she smashes her little head into your neck/chest.

Hubby is still mad that years ago, when we were between birds, we were offered an African Grey and all the stuff - cage, everything - for free. Friend of his mother couldn't keep the bird anymore and wanted it to go to a good home. We said no and he still laments about it. It wasn't right then - our house is tiny and we worked all the time - it wasn't the right environment for that bird, and we wanted for once to be able to travel a bit. We never did travel and now we have these guys, who I'm afraid to leave, so he gets more annoyed that he didn't accept this other bird.

My step-grandmother had a conure - they're cool too =) I think he's still living, but they've rehomed him b/c she's dealing with dementia. This poor bird was a rescue at the vet clinic where she worked, so she took him home. Then someone else wanted him, so he went there. When it didn't work out, he came back to her - this happened a few times and it just made the bird more aggressive each time. Poor thing. It seemed the best with her - they never should have let it go elsewhere. It's hard with birds that live so long. They're a big commitment and so many people aren't ready for that. And they need a lot more attention that little finches who like each other better than people - lol.

Will look forward to updates on your babies - love seeing all the color combos. =)

[MiaCarter]

lyswood -- Aw, that's a bummer about the Af. Grey. It sounds like it wouldn't have been quite right for you at the time, but it sounds like you'd be good today.
Af. Greys are tough, as they're so, so smart. They've tested at the intelligence level of a third grader, if I recall correctly? So you can't leave them locked up in a cage or even in a single room all day; they need tons of attention and stimulation.
I'd love one, but I'd be tasked with getting him/her accustomed to being around cats (and vice versa) so I could give him/her the attention they needed. I'm not sure it's a challenge I'm up for at the moment!

Conures are really lovely too. They do develop a LOT of behavioral issues. I think people underestimate their intelligence because they're smaller and assume they have the stimulation requirements more like a cockatiel or budgie. But they're more similar to the larger birds. They're so fun, though!

So how are your guys doing? Are they settling down, I hope?

[lyswood]

lovezebs Overall they get along well - couple of beak pokes during the day if one wants to be alone on the perch and another lands too close, but they share dishes and food and sit beside one another without incident. It's just at bedtime - they really fight for position. In the end, they usually end up cozied together in the same order. I was hoping they would get over it.

In other news, I put Elaine back 15 minutes ago to a rearranged cage after holding her cage up to the big one for awhile. The babies came over to see her and they all seemed anxious to be together. Nope.

She has resumed the chase after about 5 minutes of peace.

I'm so frustrated! She was upset in that cage by herself and I thought for sure she'd want to get back where she could fly. Maybe I didn't keep her long enough, but 2 days and 2 nights seems to have had zero effect. The others really like it in their new cage - including papa - wish she would just get over it already and settle down! I can't take her and her mate back out - there's no room - and I don't think it's fair to him - he likes it in there. So much more room and things to do. Would seem so sad to put them back in a little cage.

It's been only a half hour - maybe she'll chill out. Even when she's sitting quietly by herself, she's got her wings low or is preening...still agitated. I'll give her some time. Not sure pulling her back out again will be helpful. If I do, I'll try to take the other hen she seemed to like the best with her. Scary in that tiny cage, though.

I think it's going to be another long day. Ugh.

[MiaCarter]

Agh. That's a bummer.
I'd give her some time and see what happens. She'll either get over it or she won't. And in the case of the latter, you'll need to rearrange.
But I'd give her a few days and hopefully she'll get it worked out.

It's hard to tell without seeing the behavior and dynamics in person.
It's possible she's feeling threatened by the youngsters. In fact, I'd say that's rather likely.

Is she more aggressive with some and less so than others? If so, you might leave the one she tolerates in the cage, remove the others.
Let her get comfortable with that one, then add another. Sometimes introducing one at a time is better. I've had success that way. (In fact, with cats -- who are about as snippity as it comes with newcomers -- that's the only way I do it now when I have multiples to add to the equation. With multiples, some of the residents just have a hissy pissy meltdown. One at a time is more tolerable.)
If you did this, I'd keep the juveniles that you remove in a cage right beside the main cage.

But I wouldn't do this right away. I'd give them a few days. Maybe a week or even longer as long as nobody is getting hurt.
I doubt you're going to see a total ceasefire. It's going to happen more gradually. You'll see more and more time between each chase. Gradually, they'll become less and less common.

Can you tell whether she's on the offensive or defensive?

There's no nest, right?

Can you film what's happening? I think that would help.

Also, if you have NV Powder or Thrive, I'd recommend giving some to help counteract the stress.
I'd also offer a heat lamp. I always offer one when there's a stressful time like a new cage, a new cagemate, illness, etc.
It seems like they use it a bit more during times of stress. And when they're basking in the warmth, they're not chasing/being chased.

[lyswood]

MiaCarter Thank you!!!

Well, the last hour seemed really promising and I was about to declare that things had maybe calmed down enough not to worry, but now they're ALL wound up and chasing each other and generally causing chaos. Mama just caught a baby by the wing - before then it wasn't catching, just chasing.

They were SO good for an hour or more - sharing dishes and just doing their own thing, listening to the smooth jazz I have on for them. Then like a switch, all heck broke loose. Nothing changed in the house - no clue what did it, but 3 chicks were really going after each other, red head went after mama, now mama is back to chasing everyone while papa and the one baby just try to steer clear. A lot of this is hormonal, I think, making me wonder why I didn't just stick to the plan and separate via sex. =\ This sounded like such a better idea and I love this cage. They have so much room - I want them to settle in so badly.

I feel like I can't leave them alone or they'll kill each other, yet obviously I can't keep sitting here every day. I'm sure my anxiety is oozing from me...lol.

They did this in the other cage - always had spurts of increased activity and chasing and griping at one another - I just didn't fret about it because I didn't sit here and watch. They were probably doing the same darn thing. Now it's exacerbated with mama in there all hyped up.

They go nuts, then stop and share millet or dishes or preen beside one another, then they go nuts again. We're approaching the time of day where they rest together - hoping they do that and calm the heck down.

I was so hopeful - they were SO good for such a long time! Now everyone is mad at everyone.

If they can't coexist I'm not sure how to split them up - their annoyance doesn't seem to be directed at anyone in particular, so not sure males / females would even work. Hate to break up the parents, but maybe there isn't a choice. Might be able to fashion a divider for this cage but then it's shorter than their other ones. There just isn't room for more cages and more craziness - they need to figure this out.

Anyway, here is a vid of mama chasing:

Mama chasing

And this one is just cute - plus she chases again toward the end:
Finch family

[MiaCarter]

Those are some lovelies for certain!

I love the little girl peering in the camera in the second video! So cute!

That looks a tad bit territorial -- the way she's up there controlling the high perch.

She seems pretty dominant there up on her perch, but I noticed she let the girl with the red head and lavender chest up there with her. So that's good.

I wouldn't be too worried. I'm surprised she hasn't caught them more before now. It's definitely not ideal, but I think she'll get over it.

It's not sheer offensive aggression; she's reacting to them. I would be more worried if they were all sitting there on a perch and she started going at them without any movement on their part.
They all moved and created a perceived "threat" before she reacted.

That hour of peace is significant, though. As I mentioned, it won't just stop completely. Instead you'll go longer and longer periods between incidents. So next time you might get 90 min of peace. Then 2 hours and so on until the behavior eventually disappears.

You've got a great variety in there! Orange head, red head and black head. White, purple and lavender chest. I think I saw a pastel in there? What a lovely crew!
The little black head who's coloring up looks so awkward and scraggly cute!

[lyswood]

Yes, exactly - she reacts to them when they move. She'll be sitting beside one for a long time, then 2 minutes later when that one is on the other side of the cage hovering, she chases.

I went away for a half hour after the last post, then came back upstairs and laid on the couch to observe them - this is on the opposite side of the room so I wasn't right there at the table next to the cage. They tend to forget I'm there when I'm so far away.

They were really good - very peaceful - so much so that I dozed for almost an hour. I'm a light sleeper and they did not wake me - every time I opened my eyes they were eating or snoozing and I heard no flapping around (which will wake me from the bedroom normally, so they must have been very quiet).

After an hour or so, there was more chasing, but really just the zip-zip-zip back and forth kind. Then it stopped and they were good again - for another hour. So essentially this has been 2.5 hours of mostly peace, and they're tucked in or just sitting still again with two of the babies serenading.

I did read on the forums that preening toys can stimulate nesting behaviors that can cause aggression, so I moved the pacifier (will probably take it out, but they like it so I'm keeping a watch on it). There are two other preening toys in there and I watched to see if this caused issues when they played with them, which it didn't. They are those colorful folded paper-like toys - they seem to try to pull apart the folds more than get string from the bottom, so in my mind it's giving them something to do besides harassing each other - LOL. Watching them though - might just take them out.

I also added greenery to split that high perch in two - it extends to split the rope below as well, so there are like 4 'compartments' over there now. They seem to like being separated. Did the same on the other side of the cage as well - they're enjoying pulling on the greenery and now they're all spread out on different sides of it, puffed and comfy - I think they like it. That was the one suggestion I hadn't implemented yet because I wasn't sure how. I think it's helping.

That high perch was an addition - it wasn't there the other day when she was being naughty - I had taken down all high perches because I thought maybe that was part of it, but she reacted the same. I thought maybe this sideways one might be something new for distraction. Now with the greenery there, I think one will roost on one side and one on the other - that yellow head female is one mama seems to tolerate, and they slept on the same high perch several nights ago.

I'm excited about the colorings you mentioned because I've been wondering about these last two babies, suspecting the male to be pastel and the female a black head. They're not done with their head feathers yet...it's been forever. Someone here suggested they're stuck in the molt and I think they're right. They make tiny changes every day but they're sure taking their time. I think the male will be a red head (I see some red or orange dots) but his breast does seem so much lighter and is pretty much filled in.

The other hen seems to have more black on her head in places where her sister and mother don't, so I wonder if she'll be black. Time will tell, I suppose. It was super fun to see them color up - kind of exciting to get the white breasted guy - he's also a very peaceable bird. I see he's missing some feathers near his rump (I think you can see it in the video) which might be due to the bedtime tussling. Oy. He hates to be on the end of the line and will just keep landing and getting bitten until he either wins or gives up. I wish they'd stop that - maybe they'll finally settle into positions now with the barriers.

I also read that more light can help with aggression. I'd been turning their lights out earlier to curb egg laying, but tonight I'll start leaving them on longer again. Get them a full 12 hours or so. That seems to help the bedtime fighting as well, since they're more tuckered out by the time it's lights out. We lose sun by about 6:45 pm, so they start to slow down. I was turning them out at about 7:40 and they didn't wake up until about 8:15 am.

Sorry for the novel. I'm cautiously optimistic about the extended periods of peace - hoping it stays that way.

Hubby is home now and will be tomorrow, so he can (I hope) keep an eye on them from the couch and I can take a break, which I think they would also appreciate - ha!

Thanks again for all the great advice...we'll see what tomorrow brings. It does indeed seem like the feisties will decrease slowly - I fully expect chaos in midday again tomorrow - seems to be their rowdiest time. But maybe, just maybe, the barriers and a good night's sleep will keep them calmer. A girl can dream!

Oh - one other thing I'm trying is to add egg shells and different veggies throughout the day to give them new things to do in different places in the cage. They're very good about utilizing the full height of it and checking out new things. At least temporarily, they get distracted and work together with no bickering.

Thank you again. =) Hubby met a huge bird today - big like an African Grey but very ornate feathers...name was two-headed something or other...he couldn't remember. He was in awe. I'll try to figure out what it was if anyone is interested.

[lyswood]

Okay - quickie update because it makes me happy and I feel all I do is worry on this forum!

Lately I've been cleaning their cage / changing papers and swapping out food at night. This schedule started when I had a gig and had to get going in the morning before they were really awake, so all I had to do was change their waters, give them greens and turn on their sun before I left. It also makes it handy if I want to sleep in a bit - they can get up and have what they need until I get there. Yes, I will get timers - just haven't yet - I like saying good night and good morning and easing the transition rather than a sudden click of the light. Part of the reason I have no travel life.

Anyway, I cleaned and that signaled to them that lights out was coming soon, so they were whizzing about trying to find their roosting place. They really like the new greenery, so there was a lot of excitement about where to perch. They didn't just try to get into a line. I was concerned because baby Amy was on the high perch where I assumed mama Elaine would want to be. Amy's a tough little chick and they've had battles already.

Papa Kramer (I realize I'm finally using their names...not sure why the delay) wanted that spot too and he fought for it, bless his heart. He is my most peaceful dude - my first ever finch who lost two partners (males) before we brought him Miss Elaine. He stuck it out, but so did Amy and they're both there on the same side of the high perch. I think they'll be fine together after they finish their staredown. Penny (yellow head hen curious about the camera) perched just below, snuggled up to the greenery.

Sheldon and Leonard, two chicks who usually cause chaos at bedtime, are perched on the other side of the cage next to each other with the new greenery between them. SO CALM. Mama Elaine was a little put off, but decided to sit beside Leonard - totally away from her mate AND the high perch, which surprises the heck outta me. She tried a few times to perch by her mate and chick, but gave up immediately.

Raj the red-headed male couldn't decide, but now he's next to Penny and everyone is just sitting. JUST SITTING!!! QUIETLY!!! All of this before 8 pm and I've decided to extend their lights tonight, so it's not even bedtime yet.

Of course if they start tucking in I'll turn off the sun and switch on the moon, but I wanted to give them time in the light to sit and just BE - everyone in their spot - and just breathe. Get used to one another. Realize there is a lot of space to utilize. Hoping this helps and also hoping they do the same tomorrow night and just find their spots and be done with it. That was my dream for the new cage - that the bedtime battles would cease. It might happen, though I hate to get too optimistic. They didn't bite - only a bit of fencing - and no one held out long.

I really think that separating greenery is making a difference. There is a perfect spot for mama on the other side of the top perch, but she didn't fight for it tonight.

Sorry - not so short. I just feel such a sense of relief after these last few days!!! Maybe tomorrow will be even better and they'll be calmer. I have a lot more hope tonight than I did this morning, when I wanted to sit in a corner and cry! LOL I am prepared for craziness, but praying it won't happen. As long as no one is getting hurt, maybe time is all they need.

[MiaCarter]

That's great news!

I think they'll work it out. It'll just take some time. It sounds like it's an improvement from a couple days ago!

The greenery can really help. I compare it to a bunch of testosterone-fueled guys sitting in a room for a few days on end. If it's an empty room, just chairs, they're going to go at it before too long. Put up some cubicles and other dividers and there's a better chance of keeping the peace since they're not all sitting there staring at each other!

Love their names, by the way!

[lyswood]

Very good analogy!!!

I just switched their lights - they were in all different positions when I went up, but they're all re-settled with no fighting. WHEW!!!

Amy (Amy Farrah Finch) moved to the place as yet unused on the high perch, with Leonard and Kramer (my two mellow fellows) on the other side. Penny stayed where she was, but Elaine took Sheldon's place on the other side of the cage next to that greenery, and on the other side of her was Raj and Sheldon is on the outside edge, similar to where he slept in the other cage.

I can finally relax and start my "day off" at 9 pm! Woot!

I'm very encouraged...very optimistic.

Re: names - parents are named after Seinfeld characters, and the babies are Big Bang Theory..lol. The two males we lost were Newman and Cosmo, also Seinfeld. We knew when the babies were born that we were going with BBT - it was fun to see who would be which when they aged. And they really match their characters' personalities with the exception of Amy, who's not at all timid like Amy Farrah Fowler. Sheldon is perfect - he's still not fully colored, so kind of a child-man, and he sings to his father every day. Freaks him out. LOL

[lyswood]

So far so good today - quiet morning at first, then a lot of chasing, but mama wasn't doing all of it. The two boys chase a fair amount too. Mostly perch-to-perch stuff, so I'm trying not to worry. Been down in my office all morning and check on them sporadically - they all seem fine.

Cute vids today - here's the busy cage with the focus on the perch right in front of the camera. Most of them make an appearance. Papa Kramer is in the background at the end, a little stressed by the activity:
Busy Babies

Here's a very short funny one - Kramer comes in for a close-up, and curious Penny photobombs it, sneaking in from the side to check out the cam:
Kramer Penny

Actually going to leave the house for a bit and hope there isn't a feathery bloodbath when I'm gone. I think they'll be fine - they still chase and still get ornery with one another in little spurts, but so far there haven't been any injuries - if that continues (obviously I hope it does) I think they'll adjust.

[lyswood]

If anyone is still interested - lol - things are going well!

They are still feisty at certain times during the day, but they get along pretty well. Amy Farrah Finch is a beast - she has claimed the high perch and tonight had papa Kramer hanging by his wing - doh!

They change positions every night, but I think Amy will stay on the high perch - she's pretty feisty.

The additional greenery is proving to be a lifesaver - they really do enjoy having their own compartments away from the others. The only bummer is that it's given the two chicks a semi-private place to do it - yeeps. But all seems well. New food with less fat and protein on the way so I can now attack the breeding condition issue.

Thank you again for all the help and advice - I think this will work. Still cautious, but I think it will work.

[MiaCarter]

lyswood - This is great news!

It can take time, but I think they'll figure it out.

A fellow animal lover once told me that if you introduce two or more animals and they get through the first 20 minutes without seriously maiming each other, then peaceful co-existence is possible.
I've found that to be quite true!

So happy to hear they're getting it all sorted. I bet they'll be just lovely together before you know it!

[lyswood]

MiaCarter
A fellow animal lover once told me that if you introduce two or more animals and they get through the first 20 minutes without seriously maiming each other, then peaceful co-existence is possible.
I've found that to be quite true!

INDEED!! I've found that to be true as well with cats, dogs, rats, etc. Our cat is so used to new critters coming into the house that he just looks at us like "really?" and saunters away. He's seen a lot of turnover in his 22+ years - amazed he tolerates this Min Pin. lol

Hubby is in charge of bedtime again tonight - they were good for him Tuesday - hopefully good tonight. I really like this moonlight bulb that I got for them - they can see much better than they did with the night light and I think they like it - seems much more sedate for them yet gives more light.

Most of them still wake up every time I walk by though for the first few hours after bedtime - I assume that'll calm down once they're truly settled. They never used to wake up in the old cages. They're in a busy spot because we have a small house and I didn't want them tucked away where we couldn't see them. I think they just need to feel comfy and secure in their new spot. Once they're really asleep, it's amazing what they sleep through - lol.