Is the bickering normal? Should I have all males?

[Kuromi]

It's been awhile since I posted here since life has been hectic, so I can't recall if I ever made a post about my finches or not. I purchased 2 male zebra finches back in August from Petsmart (I searched extensively for nearby breeders and no luck; the local pet stores aren't any better and Petsmart's were healthy-looking). They have been housed in the same cage together since then, and will sleep together, eat together, preen one another, but will still bicker regularly.

Yesterday, I wound up purchasing 4 more zebra finches from Petsmart. I had wanted 6 from the beginning (I know they need to be in pairs and having 2 pairs is apparently a bad idea), but had always just wanted males since I worried about egg binding, calcium deficiencies, etc. with the females. I've had a hard time finding 4 healthy-looking males at once so I finally gave up and purchased 3 males and 2 females.

So I now have 4 males (3 standard & 1 CFW), and 2 females (both standard). The cage is large with plenty of room for all of them, I have 3 enclosed nests in there and 1 basket nest, 3 water sources with one being the bath, 3 food dishes, etc. all spaced out around the cage. Before putting in the new finches I first wiped the cage and all accessories down thoroughly, threw away and replaced the nest my boys had been using, and completely re-arranged the cage.

So I guess my question is.... should I be worried about all of the bickering they're doing? My 2 original males did this when I first brought them home, but I still worry. Also, will it be an issue to have 2 females and 4 males? I admittedly originally thought that the CFW was a female, until I got home and looked at color charts closer.

This is my first time owning birds of any kind, and I've only been at this since August so, I apologize if any of my questions seem silly!

[MiaCarter]

Not silly at all! The only silly question is the one you don't ask!

How long has this squabbling been occurring?

And what form does this bickering take?
Is it just beak fencing or is it actual nipping, pulling feathers, etc?
How often are the confrontations occurring?

My worry is that you have twice as many males as females. So that's going to make a competitive environment where the boys are competing for females.

So, I would do one of two things:
-get 2 females so you have a female for each male. (Or trade 1 male for a female)
- Or I would remove the nests and create a non-breeding environment. They should hopefully settle down once the breeding stimulus is removed.

Also, how large is the cage? If you have too many zebras in a small space, they're more apt to squabble.
So you might find that it's easier to remove two of the males to a separate cage. A same-sex pair can be very happy together, so no worries in that regard. That would also fix the male-female balance. (And while a pairing of 4 isn't ideal, it can work.)

[Kuromi]

First off, thank you for the response!

I just brought the 4 new ones home yesterday, so it hasn't been going on for long. Today they actually seem to be doing a bit better. I have seen some of them preening each other and they don't seem to be squabbling nearly as much.

As for what kind of squabbling, there is a lot of beak fencing, but also it seems to be mostly chasing each other away from things, and also when one of my original 2 starts singing, one of the other boys usually goes after him. There has been some feather-pulling and nipping, but not a whole lot.

This is the cage that I have - it is 31 inches long x 20.5 inches wide x 53 inches high

I'm in a small-ish apartment so having another cage of birds is not an option unfortunately. I could return one of the boys and get another female, so the female/male ratio would be even, or I could return the 2 females and get 2 more boys, so I'd have an all-male flight. Last option would be to wait it out and see what happens and/or remove the nests.

From what I've seen so far, it looks as though the CFW male has possibly paired with a female (I've seen them sitting next to one another several times preening each other). I've also seen the other new boy preening the other female. My 2 original males seem to be interacting as usual.

[Kuromi]

For the sake of keeping things less confusing, I figure I might as well use my 2 original boys' names. Prince Gumball and Marshal Lee.

After observing them some more, it actually looks as though Gumball is trying to court one or both of the ladies. He keeps singing at them, and whenever he does, sometimes Marshal will come over and start going at him. Gumball has been going in a nest with one of the ladies too.

So it looks as though I should probably just return the 2 females, and see if I can't find 2 more males. I would honestly prefer to have all males as I don't want to breed, but I'd like to keep the nests in.

Would this be alright, or do you think that it would cause issues if I removed both females and had all boys?

[MiaCarter]

Ooh, that's a tough one.

I'd give them some time. Give it a few days at least.
A bit of beak fencing and even chasing is actually expected for the first couple days when they're establishing a pecking order and getting to know each other.

You could, theoretically, keep 6 male zebras in a cage of that size, providing they had good dynamics.

I'd let them get to know each other. You may luck out and end up with two males who pair up. Or they may be a more communal group, without distinctive pairings.

I would absolutely remove the nests. That will reduce the hormonal component a bit so they can actually get to know each other without the hornery you're-competition-so-i-must-fight-you tendencies.
You don't need nests for sleeping and they would need to form bonded pairs first if you were breeding, so better to remove them for now and let them focus on forming a social order first.

For the sake of harmony, I would watch and see who gets along. If you have a distinctive pair, you'll usually want to keep them together.
If you have a male who's consistently fighting with others, then that may be the guy to switch out for a female.

Honestly, though, you may not need to switch out a male for a female if you keep the nests out of there.
I've kept more zebras than any other bird and yes, they are a bit pushier than many other species, but they can get along in communal groups quite nicely. (In fact, at the moment, I have a 3-some due to a recent death and a 5-some due to a mama's boy who's formed a bonded 3-some with mom and dad.) Those pairings shouldn't work, but they do.

So just let them figure it out for now and watch to see how they do. I think your chances of harmony are quite good if you remove the nests.

I would also add a bit of fake foliage to create some little hidey spots and so forth.
Think of it like this: you've got a room of dominant, testosterone-fueled men sitting in an empty room for a few days. They're going to be tusslin' before too long in that scenario because they have nothing to do but stare at each other and talk trash.

But if you put those men in a room with cubicles and little different sitting areas and so forth, they're going to have a bunch of areas to hang out and they won't be sitting there staring at each other all day, every day for days on end. Chances of harmony are much greater.

So add some fake foliage. Remove the nests. Give them time. That should do the trick.

[Kuromi]

Well, I just removed all of the nests so we'll see if that helps any! Although it seems like the CFW male was using one of the food troughs for a nest, lol (he kept putting nesting material in there).

Plants were one thing I hadn't thought to use, but that makes a lot of sense! Are any fake plants alright, or are there certain materials that are bad? If I can use anything I could just pick some up that are used in fish tanks or for decorating.

[lovezebs]

Kuromi
From someone who has a flight of Zebras, if I were you, I would return the females (while you still can) and get an extra two males. Even if the nests are removed, they will still pair up and breed and lay eggs in seed dishes, or on the floor or where ever. With an unequal number of M/F, you will get fights, and some of these fights can get ugly.

If you don't want to breed, then why throw the females into the mix?

Even with just males, you will get squabbles (Zebras being Zebras). Males will squabble about who is the king of the castle. There will always have to be a 'top' man, and there will always be the ones who will challange that.

Good luck.

~Elana~

[MiaCarter]

Kuromi --- I think you can use any silk flowers.
I just go to Joanne Fabrics or Michael's Arts and Crafts and I'll get those 6-foot lengths of "garland". I usually opt for the leaf or vine-looking garlands.

I just remove any berries and cut any loops (they're for mounting the garland, so there's usually a plastic loop at each end and one or two in the middle.

[Kuromi]

Well, after watching them last night for hours and trying to include plants and re-arrange things, the CFW male was still being extremely territorial. He kept chasing everyone away from the food troughs (there are 4 of them spread out around the cage), except for 1 of the females. He was getting more aggressive and feather-pulling the other boys and fighting (not just beak fencing). Gumball, one of my first 2 boys was also being territorial and paired with a female, although not as bad as the CFW.

This morning they were still behaving the same despite the nests being removed and plants thrown into the mix, so I decided I should probably try to get rid of the females. Thankfully, the Petsmart I got them from had more in the back that they had put out, and there were 2 males available that I could swap the females with. So I went and exchanged the ladies for 2 boys.

It's not even been an hour after having all boys, and the change is already like night and day. They are not being territorial at all, they are all happily sharing the food dishes, sitting by one another, preening each other, and singing.

Granted, I'm sure there will still be squabbles but it's a heck of a lot better than it was! Had there been enough boys for me to get 4 more from the beginning I would have. The only reason I got females as well is because Petsmart is basically the only pet store around here that carries zebra finches (there is 1 other but they don't take good care of their animals, plus they are very overpriced), and I couldn't find 4 healthy-looking boys from them at one time. I lucked out that they had more in the back this time!

[MiaCarter]

Well, this is great news!

Indeed, removing females from the equation can really change the dynamics.

Personally, I would have given them a bit more time to see if they could achieve a nice balance (Unless that male kept being nasty. Then I would have done the same.)

But a happy ending is all that matters! It doesn't really matter how you get to that destination.