Zebra finch death, please help! Keep 5, or get a 6th again?

[Kuromi]

I hate that so far my posts have mainly been about unpleasant things. I was hoping to post some photos I took of my boys soon but I have something more pressing now.

I've had 2 male zebra finches since late August (Marshal Lee and Prince Gumball). Not too long ago, I made a post about acquiring 4 more zebras (2 girls and 2 boys). That caused trouble, so I returned the females and got 2 boys instead. After a week of having all boys and no bickering, today I discover one of them unexpectedly dead on the bottom of the cage.

It was one of the newest ones. When I first purchased him I was wary of getting him as he had some damaged/bad looking tail/wing feathers. I've since learned that they were probably regrowth, so he may have been an older finch.

There are no signs of blood anywhere on him, no discoloration or signs of problems near his vent or beak that I can tell, and he had a full crop. He was getting along fine with the other boys as far as I could tell. Last night, he was even nesting in a basket nest with 3 of the other new boys (they seem to be a mated trio).

There are 4 food troughs, millet throughout the cage, 3 sources of fresh water, plants, 4 nests, multiple branch perches, swings, grit, cuttlebone, etc. The rest are all still singing and behaving as usual.

I took lots of photos of him since they might be helpful in identifying any problems that could have led to his death, but I don't want to post them if it might squick people out (there is no gore or anything, but still).

Other than trying to figure out what may have caused his passing, my main question is this: now that I have only 5, will this be okay, or do I need to introduce another so there is 6 again? Marshal Lee and Prince Gumball (my original 2) are together, and the other 3 have been together as well (they sleep together, all preen one another, etc). Should I wait and see if anything changes, if any fighting develops, or go ahead and get a 6th? I want to do the least stressful and best thing for them, and I'm unsure what that would be.

[Sally]

So sorry you lost this bird. You are welcome to post photos, most members are pretty used to it, though usually not much can be learned after they have died. I would leave the five as they are, since they seem to be getting along. Normally, when you add one or more birds to an existing community, it is best to take out all the birds, rearrange perches, feeding stations, etc., and then introduce them all at once, so that they think they are in a new cage and no one has a territory established yet. You always have to watch odd numbers, as sometimes the odd one will be left out and bullied by the others, but these seem to have established a bond already.

[Kuromi]

I may have spoken too soon.

We were out for about an hour or so, returning the finch that passed and getting a few other things. Right when we got back, I heard the distress call(s) and see the CFW fighting with one of the other males (not sure which). CFW had pulled out some feathers, and his own head is ruffled with some feathers missing.

I just took out all the nests, put fresh spray millet in, and cleaned out the bottom of the cage so they can't grab at any fallen nesting material through the bars. I've noticed that they tend to use the food troughs as nests with or without material though, so I'm not sure if this will help any.

When we were returning the deceased bird to Petsmart, they still only had 3 females (2 of which were the ones I returned), and 1 male (the one I had passed on because he was very skinny and beaten up, being bullied by the others).

Last week when I checked the few other pet stores around here, the only 1 that usually has zebra finches only had females.

I'm really at a loss for what to do now.

[Kuromi]

Petsmart is closed for Thanksgiving and I'm not sure if Harp's will be open (on the off chance they do have more males by now).

They just did more feather-pulling with loud distress calls. Should I put the nests back in?

I'm really worried that I'm going to wake up and find another (or more) of them dead or injured.

[Kuromi]

I put the nests back in because they were being territorial and fighting over the food troughs as if they were nests. The trio is now settled back down in their basket nest and Gumball and Marshal seem to be trying to both settle in an enclosed nest (If Marshal is already in, he will fly out as soon as Gumball goes in, but Gumball keeps flying out and making the whining/nesting noise as if trying to get Marshal in with him).

I guess I'll just have to hope that they don't fight too badly over the night and until I can get another male.

[Sheather]

I am sorry you are going through so much trouble. : (

This is why I really, really don't recommend zebra finches as first finches... or really as cage birds at all much of the time. They bicker, fight, and are the only common finches you see which will not just fight but kill each other outright.

The wild zebra finch is not an aggressive bird; nor, generally, are the domestic stocks in their native Australia. However, some lines in Europe and especially in America, have become incredibly mean little birds due to bad and indiscriminate breeding. What we've gotten are birds that often denude one another, maul eachother, and kill their very own offspring - in some cases we get individuals to the point where they simply cannot be housed with any other individuals and must be housed, unnaturally, alone.

I myself have two zebras amongst our many other finches in the aiary; Zach is a pied 'normal' zebra, a typical American-type. He is extremely pugnacious and typically downright horrid to nearly anyone. For a while he did fine in the aviary as he was so outnumbered, but once he began trying to shake our latest society finch fledglings to death like a pitbull, he's been caged alongside the only bird he doesn't hate - a female silverbill finch, whom he's dead-set on making his mate (she's not quite so interested).

We also have Cody. Cody is an English zebra, much bigger than Zach and obviously of English descent; he's sweet and quiet and wouldn't hurt a fly, never had any problems with him. My experience with American zebras have all been similar to Zach, however. Mean little guys.

It all depends on individual personalities of course, but I would not recommend five birds together. That is generally a recipe for disaster with this species. Your best bet, given that you seem to have a couple of particularly violent individuals, would be to set the birds up in cages by pairs - and even then, the most aggressive individuals may never get along with another male (or even, sometimes, a female). I personally would not keep groups of zebras together in anything except a large aviary (Zach was always going after Cody even in mine, which is a 12 x 10 foot room!). I can't say zebras are my favorite species, even if they're so cute, as they tend to have such rotten personalities. :/

[dutch]

Sheather....I think you're right about the zebs being aggressive in America

Here in aus...they are brilliant...never had a problem with agression

[Kuromi]

I got zebra finches because their beeping noises are therapeutic for me and I love all of the other sounds they make. Societies are also adorable, but they lack the beeping.

However, I didn't realize that they would be so difficult and it's really discouraged me from owning birds. I think I am going to return the 3 new zebras and just stick with Marshal and Gumball, because I know that they can get along.

In the future I will probably avoid zebras unless I can somehow get them from a breeder who knows their temperament and backgrounds better. Otherwise, the only others I even have an interest in are java finches.

[KarenB]

Funny, I didn't want zebras BECAUSE of the beeping, and I never thought I'd want societies, because, well, they are so common. But there's a lot to be said for the socies, because they are just so easy going and sweet with one another, and their personalities make them up there in the top five of finches for me, and I have many different species of finches, from waxbills to Gouldians.

If you take those three newest ones back, maybe you could get a separate cage and put a pair of societies in to try. I think you'd like them a lot.

But, I understand Javas are really smart and cool birds. I would go for it but not put them in with the zebras. I may even try a pair some day, if I could figure out where to put them.

[Kuromi]

lol, that is what most people seem to say! Ever since I heard them in pet stores when I was younger, I've always loved the sounds and they make me happy just hearing them.

That said, I do think societies are just as adorable! It's simply the lack of beeps that makes me favor zebs over them. I still wouldn't mind having some, though.

I'm in an apartment with not a ton of extra room though, so having another cage setup isn't an option for me. I think I will just stick with the zebs for now, and perhaps after them I will try societies!

[KarenB]

Oh, there's always room for more:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4 ... SY355_.jpg

[Kuromi]

Haha, funny you mention that, as I'm planning on doing a similar stacking method with my hamster tanks!

The cage I have is very tall and non-stackable though. At any rate, I think with being a first time bird owner, one species at a time is enough for me!

Also, today there has been no fighting, so I think I might wait to see if that changes and fighting breaks out again or not. I still have some time before I can't return them anymore. Is it possible they were just fighting because of the change, and now they'll be alright?

[MiaCarter]

I think there's a very good chance they were upset by the change in dynamics due to the death of the other bird.

I'm a very big fan of zebras. I've literally had probably over 100 over the years and I've never had really bad aggression problems (To be honest, I never realized they were so problematic in this regard until I came here to the forum!)

You also have to remember that they were just beginning to establish a real society when this bird died.
Whenever you blend lots of individuals together and expect them to form a new society, there will be tension -- whether it's zebras or any other species (bird or otherwise.)
For this reason, I generally approach a more gradual method, adding 1-2 at a time and waiting several weeks in between.

They've been harmonious before, so you know they're capable of this. So there's no need to return anyone, in my opinion.
I would give them a couple weeks to see if they can get sorted.
If they still have tensions at the end of that time, I would consider getting a sixth to balance the dynamics.
OR, if there's one who's consistently causing issues, return that single bird.

But honestly, I don't think you'll have to do that. I think they should simmer down and hopefully the dynamics should settle down.

As for photos, I wouldn't hesitate to post anything non-gory. I think we've all seen deceased birds. (And for those who haven't, let me know what bubble you live in as I'd like to join you! LOL)
I might post a little caution at the top of the post so people can choose to scroll down or not.
Or you could post them on your flickr or tinypic and link to them, so people have the choice to view or not.

Though as Sally mentioned, I don't know how much we can determine from photos. Behavior is usually more telling in the absence of physical trauma/physical symptoms.
I've had birds (and other animals, for that matter) suddenly die for no apparent reason, never showing any sign of illness, even eating shortly before they passed.

I will say that when you buy from a pet store, you're buying a bird that has been stressed for weeks, months, even it's entire life if it came from a commercial breeding facility as is the case for large chain stores.
This stress takes a tremendous toll. They also often have a poor, seed-only diet for years on end, which takes a toll as well.
This, combined with the fact that you don't know the bird's age, means they're more prone to sudden death, especially from a serious underlying disease process.

So for this reason, I always recommend getting birds from a breeder.
(Though I wouldn't return these birds. These guys need a home too and they've already been through a lot. But in the future, a breeder would be a better choice.)
Plus, a breeder can offer lots of insight on compatibility and personality, which is always a good thing.

[Kuromi]

I will give it a few days and see what happens, then. Sadly, PetSmart's return period is only good for 2 weeks, and it's been over 1 now. They were doing just fine for a week until the 1 died.

I always try to go with breeders whenever possible, no matter the animal, but it seems no matter the animal, local reputable breeders are nigh impossible to find around my area! Especially when it comes to zebs it would seem (the closest I can find are hours away).

I would very much like to give them a home though, so I hope that they will continue to get along. Since I can't find any more healthy boys nearby, if they start fighting badly again as it nears the return period's end, I may have to take them back (or risk the chance of them injuring/killing one another as I can't add a 6th boy with none to be found in my area).

In my panic over the squabbles, I forgot all about posting the photos of the one that passed. I will do that with a warning at the top of the post like you mentioned. They may not be gore-y or uncommon, but I'd still feel awful if I made someone uncomfortable when they weren't expecting to see a dead bird.

Also, you mention an all seed diet, but I was under the impression that this is fine so long as the seeds are varied and the nutrition stats are good (and you don't have females, of course). I have been feeding them seed and spray millet; do they need more than this if they're all males and therefore not producing eggs?

[Kuromi]

WARNING, PHOTOS OF DECEASED BIRD IN THIS POST (NON-GOREY)!

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