Diet as Preventative Medicine

[debbie276]

Honey is safe to use in my opinion.

It's not the honey as much as RAW honey that Cindy is concerned about. Honey should be pasteurized for your birds.

[cindy]

I personally agree with Debbie, it is the bad bacterial spores in raw honey...it can cause botulism. Botulism can take down a birds fast. You can tell by looking at it if contains the bacteria that is harmful. Humans can tolerated a small amount and it have little or now effect on them or they can get very ill. Birds need very little to cause them to get seriously ill or worse.

I prefer to take the word of an educated vet...if they tell me not to use it then it is best not to use it.

Again, I will echo what our vets told me... they see many birds, animals come into the office, the owners have overdone foods and home remedies on them and then they have to work to undo it. Her advice..."keep it simple" and stick to avian approved products.

It is best if using honey to use pasteurized. They even recommend young children under the age of 1 not be given raw honey... their immune systems are not full developed and the bacterial spores can cause them to become violently ill. It is neglect to think just because of an opinion here that all raw honey is safe for birds when there is potential for a harmful illness to occur from giving it to them. That being said it is used in bird products but it is pasteurized and in treat form. It is high in sugars, treats should be given sparingly.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5568/2
one cup of it contains 278g of sugar
1 teaspoon contains 17g of sugar

according to this nutritional site it contains mostly a high count of carbohydrates.... carbs if not burned can turn to fat.... to me having had taken courses in nutrition in college that is an indicator that it should be used sparingly not as a main component to a diet. Birds metabolize foods medicines differently than humans.... I have yet to pull up any data on the benefits of raw honey on birds. Most sites warn against giving raw honey to birds, parrots..... it is mostly sugar.

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/dangers ... -5387.html

There are reasons for these warnings

"Risk for Infant Botulism
http://www.livestrong.com/article/26366 ... raw-honey/
Botulism spores are in air, soil, water and plants. In the absence of oxygen, the spores germinate and produce toxins. The process of boiling destroys the bacterial spores and toxins. Raw honey is a potential source of the Clostridium botulinum spores. The Centers for Disease Control, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the National Honey Board recommend that you not give honey to infants under the age of 12 months. Infant botulism is a rare disease caused by the bacteria, Clostridium botulinum. The disease causes varying degrees of paralysis. Children over age 1 and healthy adults have the mature digestive systems necessary to prevent botulism spores from thriving"

google "Clostridium botulinum in parrots" look at the symptoms and treatment...so not worth the risk.

http://www.avianbiotech.com/diseases/clostridium.htm
Description:


Clostridium - Clostridia are anaerobic (meaning unable to grow in the presence of free oxygen), gram positive, spore-forming, bacteria. Members of this genus resemble large, straight or slightly curved rods with rounded ends.

Spores do not germinate and growth does not normally proceed unless a suitable environment exists. In their active form, these bacteria secrete powerful exotoxins that are responsible for such diseases as tetanus (lockjaw), botulism, PDD syndrome, and gas gangrene. When the environment becomes less suitable for growth the bacteria begin producing spores that are able to tolerate much greater extremes than the active bacteria. The four most notable species of Clostridium are Clostridium tetani, Clostridium difficile, Clostridium perfringens, and Clostridium botulinum.

*Members of this genus produce some of the most potent toxins discovered by scientists. The toxins are relatively heat stable but may be destroyed by boiling. There are different types of the toxin; types A and C cause the disease in birds while type B frequently produces the disease in humans.

Clostridium botulinum - The organism that causes botulism is common in nature and is widely present in soils. Ingestion of the organism is not harmful. It becomes dangerous only when conditions are favorable for its growth and subsequent toxin formation. The toxin produced by C. botulinum, the causative agent of botulism, is considered one of the most potent poisons known.

The organism grows best under high humidity and relatively high temperature and in an environment containing decaying organic material (plant or animal). The organism requires an environment in which all atmospheric oxygen is eliminated. C. botulinum cannot multiply in the presence of free oxygen. Botulism results after the decaying animal or plant material containing the toxin is consumed. Decaying carcasses are a frequent source of the toxin, as are many insects feeding in the same tissue. The insects may contain enough toxin to cause the disease in any bird that ingests it. Since the toxin is water soluble, water sources may become contaminated and provide a reservoir for the disease.

*Vultures seem to be able to tolerate this and other similar toxins remarkable well.

Clostridium perfringens - This organism is capable of producing type (A, B, C, D, and E) toxins that can causes necrosis of the surrounding tissue including muscular tissue. The bacteria themselves produce gas that leads to bubbly deformations of the infected tissue. C. perfringens is capable of necrotizing intestinal tissue and can release an enterotoxin that may lead to severe diarrhea. These symptoms are sometimes mistakenly identified as being the result of Proventicular Dilation Disease or PDD infection in birds.

Clostridium tetani - This bacterium causes tetanus (lockjaw) in humans. Spores enter the body through any type of skin trauma. If and anaerobic (absence of oxygen) environment is present, the spores will germinate and eventually form an active bacterial infection. The bacteria then releases an exotoxin called tetanospasmin that effects the nervous system. One of the effects includes skeletal muscle contraction due to blockage of interneurons that regulate muscle contraction. If not treated early, mortality rates of this disease are high. Immunization is available for children and adults.

Transmission: Ingestion and wound infection contracted by spores from contaminated dirt. Inhalation of spores or bacteria from contaminated feed, water, fecal material, air, soil, and nesting material.

Symptoms: Symptoms vary depending on the type of Clostridial infection. Disease is generally caused by type-C strains of C. perfringens producing toxin in the small intestines of birds, resulting in rapid loss of condition and weight loss, lethargic behavior, decreased appetite, and blood stained or undigested food. The toxin, and its effects may remain in the system for extended periods of time even after the original bacterial infection has been treated.

Prevention: Minimize stress and overcrowding; Provide proper ventilation; Prevent malnutrition with a proper diet. Make sure feed is properly stored and is free of bacterial growth. Spores may be present in corn and grain products as well as manufactured pellets or extruded food and may develop bacterial growth if conditions are favorable.

Treatment: Antitoxins provide quick relief, Guanidine, Zinc bacitracin, penicillin, tetracycline's are used to treat infections.

Diagnosis:
Gram-stained smears from affected tissue including the greenish-brown focal areas of necrosis in the liver. Large gram-positive cells are almost certain to be clostridia, especially if spores are seen.
All toxin types (A, B, C, D, and E) of C. perfringens are culturally identical, and can only be distinguished by serological, PCR or sequence methods. When applying a certain treatment it is necessary to determine the type of C. perfringens causing the disease.

Sample: Intestinal contents, scrapings of the intestinal wall, or hemorrhagic mesenteric lymphoid nodules will show large numbers of short, thick gram-positive rods.


Yes Clostridium botulinum spores can be found in other food products that are given to birds that have gone off or not stored correctly and unknowingly fed to our birds..... but why add one more potential product that can potentially cause issue... why risk it. Caution needs to be taken when caring for and feeding our birds. Read the labels... as you would with your own foods.

[TailFeathers]

Hello Cindy,

I have researched this spore and apparently it is more prevalent in dust, manufactured foods, corn syrup and even root vegetables as it came from the soil... The original source of this ailment.

Seeing that birds in the wild peck at the ground and consume far greater amounts of soil via insects, including canaries... I would say the risk of botulism is very rare indeed.

Why does raw honey get the slap? I guess it is because more cases involve infants. However, according for the center for disease control honey is not the prime suspect.

Many cases of botulism are preventable. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil. In Alaska, foodborne botulism is caused by fermented fish and other aquatic game foods. Persons who do home canning should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated. Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Wound botulism can be prevented by promptly seeking medical care for infected wounds and by not using injectable street drugs. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust. The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning. Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older.

Avian botulism occurs mainly in birds that consume fish or are located near bodies of water where the water is stagnant and produce favorable conditions for botulism.

Again.. There is a risk. I believe it to be rare and its a problem that many people are afraid of raw milk and raw honey, even though they have been consumed for thousands upon thousands of years.

However, to each his own.

[cindy]

Exactly to each his own...taking the risk/burden of feeding a food that is not recommended for birds/parrots and comes with a definite health warning falls primarily on the owner's shoulders... we can debate on and on.

Again what is good for humans may not necessarily be good for birds. Between the risk of illness and the high sugar content which is of no benefit to the bird I will pass and seek healthier alternatives such as nourishing veggies for my birds.

[debbie276]

What I find interesting is that you push on your birds what they will never eat in the wild (honey) yet it's a well known fact birds eat eggs more often then you think and yet you refuse to feed that. You even said that your canary male "poked holes in them", he didn't eat some of that egg did he?

Just goes to show you, everyone has their own way of doing things. If it works for you that's great.

good luck

[cindy]

One thing that concerns me is someone stopping at roadside stand to buy raw honey thinking well that one member said it was safe to give...they go home and use it and they end up with sick birds or worse.

The warnings of not to use Raw honey on birds is out there for a reason.... birds will go down/experience effects faster than a human.

info on Clostridinum botulinum U.S.D.A.

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsi ... -botulinum

[dutch]

TailFeathers...@cindy

Very interesting read...tail feathers time will tell if your alternative diet works for your birds

If you end up having huge clutches and no losses over the next few years you may be onto something

I will be following your progress on this site...I cant wait to see the outcome of your breeding program...

[cindy]

size and success of a clutch does not determine if a food not recommended is good for them...it is unwise to feed a food that can potentially have risks and can be toxic to breeding and parents feeding young. Raw honey is mostly sugar/carbs... by feeding this you open the birds up to possible development of yeasts and birds can develop diabetes. http://beautyofbirds.com/diabetes.html

As mentioned before the danger with a topic like this is someone will stop by a roadside stand buy raw honey and feed it to their birds...potentially exposing them to a toxin and it could have a disastrous effect all because they read on the FF that someone told them it was safe. You must as a pet owner weigh all the risks and chose what you give your birds based on what is truly good for them and what is recommended by vets and the studies done to determine the best and safest foods for your birds, head the warnings on the internet from reliable sources regarding products/foods. Again what we can tolerate is very different than what a bird can tolerate.

[dutch]

cindy...size, success of a clutch...and no loss of any bird in your breeding program over a 2 to 3 year period is brilliant

Time will tell...let's see the outcome of this experiment

Remember my gouldian experiment worked when everyone said it wouldn't. ..

Also vets say a high protein diet will cause hens to lay eggs....not the case with my hens...high protein diet all year and nests removed for 6 months...70 hens, you maybe find 3 to 5 eggs every month in the avairy

So much for that theory

[cindy]

I go by what educated vets and the scientists/biologists study/create as balanced diets for our birds.... they spend years studying and researching the birds biology chemistry to create diets that will benefit them and keep them healthy. It takes years and generations of work to see the end results.

To much protein in a diet will lead to kidney issues and other heath concerns. To much fat in the diet can lead to hormonal sifts causing excess egg laying and health concerns as well.

I do not view my birds as an experiment. They are in our care to provide them the best quality life we can give them. I have also worked closely with our avian vets on diet and what is best for them and what is not.

[TailFeathers]

TailFeathers...@cindy

Very interesting read...tail feathers time will tell if your alternative diet works for your birds

If you end up having huge clutches and no losses over the next few years you may be onto something

I will be following your progress on this site...I cant wait to see the outcome of your breeding program...

Already have born clutches and are being fed on this diet as well. I've also included olive oil as the binding ingredient and they're eating it.

I'll upload pics soon as the chicks fledge. I don't like to disturb the hens so I place a towel blocking their view and shielding the nest. I also did that to somewhat mimic the nest being in a secure area.

[TailFeathers]

What I find interesting is that you push on your birds what they will never eat in the wild (honey) yet it's a well known fact birds eat eggs more often then you think and yet you refuse to feed that. You even said that your canary male "poked holes in them", he didn't eat some of that egg did he?

Just goes to show you, everyone has their own way of doing things. If it works for you that's great.

good luck

Hello,

My canary did not eat from his egg. But there is a point that giving bird what they wouldn't have in the wild. It's true that we can never replicate their wild diet. However, people supplement it with whatever works. Just like some people feed their birds various fruits and veggies they would not otherwise encounter, I see no problem in feeding small portions of honey. It's no their staple. They get it at least once a week.

Nigella sativa is mixed in as part of their staple.

Now, I'm doing an experiment with egg food. I'm looking at every aspect I can log from behavior, song, aggressiveness, health etc for birds being fed egg food.

I'm using quicko egg food on two pairs and the rest are being strictly fed meal worms.

Should I see no difference I'll give in and change my attitude towards egg food.


Oh and as for sickness wait for me to upload a couple photos of my birds. Two of them were puffy. I increased nigella sayiva and I'll take a photo of them now. They're doing great.

[TailFeathers]

Here I done bird being quarried in the end for illness.

After being fed nigella sativa as part of staple diet he's better. Will upload link/ photo. He has myed another canary and is healthy now.

[TailFeathers]

http://youtu.be/kbmcAHISjGI

I had to take a vertical video, sorry. Here is he's standing upright and happy.

[dutch]

cindy.......educated vets. ....been to them....they all failed

So much for education.... I saved my birds myself after doing my own research

That makes me a better vet than the so called educated vets

Maybe I should open my own hospital. ..I could call it sunlight is king..

Tail feathers I think you're onto something with the black seed