The case of the mystery finch (hybrids)

EmeraldToucan · Post by **EmeraldToucan** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:49 am

So a while back I bought some society finches from a chain pet store, or at least that's what they were sold to me as. Now I love these little guys, but they are not quite what they seemed it turns out. I thought that they looked similar enough to other society finches that I figured that's all they were, all though I think they are more attractive birds than any of the other society finches I've seen around lately (and what has happened to self societies anyhow? I can't find them anywhere). Anyhow what's unusual about these guys is more behavior and not so much appearance.

They share many of the behavioral traits common to society finches; they have made good parents, the male has the typical society finch song, and they like to huddle together into what I call the pile o' finches. However in other ways they are different. These little fellows can be very pushy little birds, even more pushy than the zebra finches I have had (and they started to become way too dominating over the one I currently have so now most of them are in a separate cage).

Now I generally have nothing against hybrids, (there are a few exceptions to this), and one theory is that society finches all started out as hybrids anyhow (though a more recent hybridization is different from one that may have happened very very far back in history) but what I do take a bit of an issue with is how poor chain pet stores, at least this one anyways, have been at keeping track of the lineages of their birds. The pet store should be at least keeping good enough track to know what exactly the birds they are selling are. I took one of these little fellows to the vet, and he said it's definitely got a bit of some other sort of finch in it, clearly a very closely related species, seeing as how they are fertile.

Anyhow after finding out more about this pet store I won't buy birds from them again (I can't remember what the forum rules are regarding getting real specific about this particular issue so I'm not naming names).

These little guys have brought me joy, and I don't regret getting them. None the less I think it is of great importance that the lineages of birds be kept track of, and that what a person thinks they are buying is actually what they are buying. I will probably never know what other sort of finch these guys have a bit of somewhere back in their ancestry, but they do keep me wondering.

B CAMP · Post by **B CAMP** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:51 am

Do you have any pictures?

Post by **Sally** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:04 am

This really touches a chord with me. I am personally against hybrids, but if people do have them, it is so important that they inform others if they rehome them. I got a "Society" family from a woman who had adopted them from someone else. The male was a Bronzewing Mannikin, the female was Society, so the two babies were hybrids. One of the hybrids has since died, and I still have the other. I put him with two male Societies, hoping to make a foster out of him. When the boys were not working out as fosters, I put a hen in with them just to stimulate the breeding instincts (her eggs would be tossed). I rehomed one of the Society males, and the second one started looking puffy.

The next thing I knew, the male Society was beaten up, losing an eye in the process. I never saw any aggression, but the only conclusion is that the BWM/Society hybrid was the aggressor. He got along fine with other males, till I introduced the hen into the cage. If I had just rehomed this hybrid, without informing them of the fact that he is a hybrid, they could have perhaps lost a valuable bird. And of course, I had no idea he would be so aggressive. With this particular hybrid cross, he is probably fertile, so it is important (to me) that he never be allowed to reproduce. So histories on our birds are very important.

bonnies_gouldians · Post by **bonnies_gouldians** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:33 pm

I fully agree that hybrids should not be passed on without telling the new owner about their lineage. But in defense of the petstore, especially if it is a chain store, they have to sell the birds as what ever they come in under. If the birds are sent in as societies then they are sold as such. You said yourself that in appearance the look relatively similar so the person who checked them in probably did not question it sense they looked so much alike. In irritation with chains, most people who are selling the animals in them do not know enough about the animals they sell to tell the minor differences between some species/hybrids. Most of the time, they are lucky to know what one looks like, let alone how they normally act. I have seen managers okay a pair of green singers being put in with a single goldbreast. Scary, but somehow the little girl is still doing okay, they dont pick on her, but I think it is because the greens are so nervous they just ignore her, plus she hides in the nest most of the time. This act alone tells of the lack of knowledge of the animals they sell, there are other cages they could have put the goldbreast in with so that she had a much better chance at being safe.

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:06 pm

Gosh Bonnie, I would get fired my first day working in a pet store. If I saw something I did not think was right for the animals I am sure that I would say something. When you get pasty fifty, you get a little more out spoken. At least I have.......sometimes I can't (or don't) bite my tongue.

EmeraldToucan · Post by **EmeraldToucan** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:36 pm

I have some pictures, I'll try to get them up today. I could not really tell by looking at them that they aren't 100% society, but my vet could tell, and I can tell they are different by observing their behavior.
I find that while some hybrids are obvious visually, some are pretty tough to tell, especially if the hybrid happened between grandparents, or great grandparents.

EmeraldToucan · Post by **EmeraldToucan** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:40 pm

I have some pictures, I'll try to get them up today. I could not really tell by looking at them that they aren't 100% society, but my vet could tell, and I can tell they are different by observing their behavior.
I find that while some hybrids are obvious visually, some are pretty tough to tell, especially if the original hybridization happened between grandparents, or great grandparents.
If I ever sell any of these birds I'll be sure to let whomever gets them know they have a bit of mystery finch in their lineage, but I think I'm going to be keeping them all, my plan wasn't really to breed them to sell anyhow.

Anyhow I've been to pet stores where the person working there had no idea what species some of the birds being sold were. It makes me think that I should be trying to get a job at these places, because I have quite a bit more experience than some of the people that get hired.

Granted some birds I'd have to get out a guide and look up to know what they are, it seems like the store should have all their animals enclosures labeled with species names, or whomever works there should have their own guide at hand.

I have also seen lots of finches mixed together that shouldn't be unless in much larger enclosures (and are best just kept separate), such as weaver (orange weavers if I remember right) males in breeding plumage mixed together with zebras and societies.

bonnies_gouldians · Post by **bonnies_gouldians** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:34 am

Wow, I thought putting a goldbreast and a green singer together was bad. A weaver and a society??? Poor things.

Donna - I told my manager that they shouldnt be together the second that I saw them in the same cage. Her response was something to the affect of "well if I put her in the cage you want me to someone may sell her for too cheap, at least in this cage all of the birds are around the same price and we wont loose as much if they sell her under the wrong scew code" I was not in the least bit happy about this, but she said if the birds started picking on the goldbreast that she would "try and figure something else out". Not very promising, but so far she is okay and its been a couple weeks.

EmeraldToucan · Post by **EmeraldToucan** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:59 am

yeah I could see it maybe working if the male was single and not in breeding condition, but this weaver was with a female and in breeding condition.

Anyhow here's the societies I've been talking about.

I found some other pictures of various society hybrids.

http://www.efinch.com/hybrids/topxsoc.jpg

The black brown society which is actually a hybrid

http://www.zebrafinch.com/SocietyFinch/Black_Brown.html

a spice society finch hybrid

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/13187749 ... 3760RXyxxx

and this one is supposedly Society x Star finch, but the tail looks zebra finch to me. Out of all of these this is the only real obvious hybrid to me, but I'm guessing those more familiar with hybrids could quickly recognize most or all of these for what they are.

http://www.efinch.com/birdpix/hybrid.jpg

With most of these the only trend I'm noticing is that they look like societies with more distinct scaling pattern on the chest, is this a trait found just among hybrid societies, or do any pure societies have it? English chocolate selfs have this trait as well, at least the ones I've seen pictures of do, are they hybrids?

So many types of society finches, and I have yet to find a really good comprehensive resource on them all!

mickp · Post by **mickp** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:45 am

Bonnie with a pet store like that you can only hope that they make a mistake and label some gouldians as zebras

bonnies_gouldians · Post by **bonnies_gouldians** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:48 pm

That would be awesome

BirdCrazy · Post by **BirdCrazy** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:11 pm

The lady I got my Pied Strawberries from bought them at PetSmart a few years back. They were sold to her as Societies!! That would be great huh?

EmeraldToucan · Post by **EmeraldToucan** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:19 pm

Ok I guess there's no harm in mentioning I got my societies from PetSmart as well. Selling Strawberry finches as societies, wow they really do not know what birds are what. Well I much prefer to get birds direct from breeder, or as rehomes, and when I can't do that I prefer to get them from a few pet stores in my area that I particularly like.