Eggs yes no, Millet yes no, greens yes no CONFUSED

[flymouse]

Ok I am so confused. I owed birds years ago and had no problem raising them. And only one died in 4 years. YEs I am sure I was very lucky.

I LOVE this list and so many nice people on here have really helped me like Babs and Cindy and not sure um lovebird or lovbird or something. LOL Sorry.

Most everyone has told me the the most knowledgable of all is LadyGouldian aka Loraine. Well i keep reading posts on here and NONE of them go by anything she says. So I am so confused.

And yesterday she stopped helping with bird diagnosis. I know she was not a vet, but she was pretty good at reading poop and telling you what to do. Today Kristina (???) about jumped down my throat about things I asked and telling me to read the files. And the files say different that what even she was telling me because Loraine changed them. Ok here is what I am talking about.

Quaranteen I've been told over and over is 3 to 4 weeks.

Last night Loraine said nothing less that 3 ( THREE) Months.

Eggs............I was told Finches and other birds love eggs and given recipes for egg mixes. And to offer them daily if I want but to make sure I give them to new mothers.

NOW I am told to NOT GIVE THEM Eggs but once in awhile unless they have babies to feed.

Millet...........I was told offer it to them daily.

Now I am told no it is fattening and only to be offered as a treat now and then.

Greens............. Fruit etc. I was told they love t have it daily.
Now i am told only once per week.

Mite Protectors----------(not safe from what I have learned and read)
Was told if they were not safe they would not be sold in the stores .

And was sent to a site telling they are filled with same thing as moth balls and they say on them dangerous for humans to inhale. So I took them all out.

Cuttle bone.............the same site as I was given for the Mite Protectors listed all things dangerous for birds and guess what was on the list. Yep Cuttle bones.

Medications while in Quaranteen.............I was told to put in quaranteen and give a regiment of several medications.


Today I read this

Mickey, they do NOT need the eggfood every day UNLESS they are feeding chicks, and they do NOT need insects. They are seed eaters, not insectivores. You're only going to make them fat - and fat birds get sick easily.

3 months MINIMUM is how long it takes to get through an entire quarantine process of medications to kill parasites. If you were to use MY Quarantine process in place of Laraine's, it takes 90 days MINIMUM. They must be wormed, they must be treated for air sac mites, they must be treated for external parasites, they must be treated for protozoa. If you don't follow these directions to the letter, you may find the bird has spread a disease process or parasite to your other birds. Skipping steps puts your entire flock at risk. Putting new birds in with your established flock without a quarantine period of at LEAST 3 months, puts your entire flock at risk.

As stated before, there is no need to post dropping photos. Unless you suspect the bird is SICK, there is no need, and if you think he is sick you need to take him to the Vet. I am no longer offering sick bird advice other than to get them stable long enough to get them to the Vet.

This page is for educational purposes. Somehow word got around that we helped with a sick bird and now folks seem to think that's what we are here for - we are NOT. I cannot stress enough - if you suspect he is sick, you need to take him to the VET - I posted a link to find a local Veterinarian to the main page. ~k

Notice the ignitial.

Last night same list i was told this

From Loraine on Ladygouldian


I'm so confused I no longer know what to do. I'm thinking about just putting them together. What do you think NOW?

[lovezebs]

flymouse

Hi Mickey.

I think the confusion comes in, because different people do things differently. We all learn as we go along the Finch path, what works for us, so we tend to pass on this information to others, who come along with questions.

Is there ONE RIGHT WAY ? That's hard to say, because we've all had our trials and tribulations, and our own experiences, with what has or hasn't worked for us and our birds.

All I can tell you, is what has worked for me, and you will have to use your own judgment, as to whether you think it will work for you as well.

Do we run into occasional problems? Yes. Do we occasionally have birds that get sick, or die suddenly for no apparent reason? Yes. That is a part of bird keeping unfortunately.

As in regards to quarantine, I have been told a month, if I remember right.

Cuttle bone, is fine. The problem that I'm aware of, is the metal holder that usually comes with it. It can be sharp, and some birds have been known to cut themselves on it.

Regarding hard boiled eggs. My crew get eggs usually twice a week or so, and I mix them with crumbled spray millet, and store bought egg food mix. When I have breeding pairs, or parents raising chicks, I offer egg everyday, mixed with spray millet, store bought egg mix, and crushed freeze dried mealworms.

Regarding live food, as in live mealworms, flightless fruit flies, etc. Finches, are seed eaters (that's true), but there are some that really enjoy live food in moderation. I know that my Red headed Parrot Finches, love mealworms, and would eat them all day long (but it will make them too fat, so they only get a few here and there). My Stars, and my Waxbill like them as well, but once again im moderation. Some species absolutely need live food to successfully raise young.

As to vegetables and fruit. My guys enjoy them almost everyday (without any problems whatsoever). And there again, one has to use common sense, and offer a variety of different things, not only one thing all the time.

My feathered kids love spray millet, and get some every few days as a treat. As mentioned above, I also add some to my egg food. I offer it as needed to feeding parents, and to new fledges and weaning chicks (because it's a soft seed, and a good starter seed).

Regarding the mite protector thingie, personally I would not put it anywhere near my birds.

As to the medications, etc. I am just starting to learn a bit about them, so I can't offer any advice in that department.

So there, that's my personal opinions on the things you've mentioned, and that's what has worked for me so far.

Others might have other opinions, and you'll have to pick through it all, use your own judgment and decide what works best for you and your feathered kids.

Good luck and best wishes.

[flymouse]

Elana

You are awesome. Thanks so much for your replies.

So if I was giving all of them eggs every day what does that do to them? I have been giving mom and dad one tsp. And the other 2 who are in there own cages about 1/2 that.

Do you grow greens from bird seed. How often can I give that?

I just want them to have a variety of things to choose from each day. Not so boring. LOL

Ok I have one more question for you. If you have a pair of finches you both from different breeders. 1 male 1 female. They have both been in 2 different cages. I want to put them together on the 1st. Who do you move. The female is in the biggest cage but I swear someone said you add the female to the male.

Also I thought my female was young but on FB Finch site they said with her beak being so dark she is ot 3 months old like i thought.

Ok it is bed time. Hope you write back soon. Thanks for all your help. Now if I can find some way to know what is good and bad poop. lol

[debbie276]

Like Elana said everyone does things differently. Some treat for everything under the sun during quarantine and others only treat for mites and worms and take a wait and see approach. "K" is Kristen, Laraine's business partner, She has always been much more into medicating then Laraine especially during quarantine. 3 to 4 weeks would be a minimum and 3 months if you are the ones that treat with every medication, you would need that long to complete all the treatments.
Eggs are a super food and should be offered depending on the cycle of your birds. Gouldians for example need the egg during breeding, molting and in times of illness but not during their resting period so that the hormone levels can decrease and they can rest.
Millet sprays are like candy but most seed mixes offer different more nutritious millet.
Greens and fruit in moderation, some are better then others so you have to look at each one.
I don't use mite protectors or cuttlebone though I think the danger of cuttlebone is the holder which is misleading, unless they found something dangerous because it is coming out of the ocean?? Wish that was better explained.

Seems like ladygouldian may be headed in a different direction then previous, will have to rethink recommendations to that site now, Laraine used to be so helpful.

If you are not noticing anything "off" with your finches after a few weeks of quarantine, I'm sure they can go together. Not a zebra expert (I think that's what you have) so I'd introduce them how ever the zebra pro's say you should.

best of luck

[cindy]

Opinions on quarantine vary but some are now saying and do recommend a 3 month quarantine. One member's vet recommends nothing short of 3 months as does mine. Some recommend a course of preventatives before putting a new arrival in with established birds that have gone through the same procedure... only change to this one is I would add a third round of Scatt or Topical ivermectin 1% 14 days after the second round recommended by my avian vet http://nixity.angelfire.com/quarantine.html

Cuttlebone yes, those metal holders they come with, toss tthem. I agree with Sally...to many risks of the bird cutting themselves on it. I have heard bits and pieces about not giving cuttlebone to birds due to mercury in the ocean's water...I have not seen any studies on it. I give it to my birds whole, grated over food, mixed in mineral/oyster shell mixes.

Egg food daily depends on the diet plan you follow...the Green Day diet says yes daily even when not breeding...others say no when not breeding. You need to do what works for you and your birds. Some of mine especially grasskeets, some of the finches seem to do better with daily or every other day soft foods. I recently went away for a two week Alaskan trip...my birds did not get soft foods, grated boiled egg foods but did get an assortment of seeds, pellets, Goldenfeast Australian Blend and dried egg food. They did fine but the day after we arrived home I made soft foods, turned the Ninja chopper on and the birds got all excited and downed everything given. If done correctly soft foods can be really a good source for the birds nutrition daily and that can or can not include boiled grated/mashed egg food. Seed then becomes secondary.

Like Debbie mentioned egg is pretty complete... going to quote Roy Beckham "The key goals with any egg food is to provide protein and a soft, easily digestible food for birds feeding their young. Remember, a whole egg has everything needed to make a whole little chicken."

Greens, veggies and sprouted seed are much better for birds than fruit... fruit can be given once in a while... fruits have a high water and fructose content so given in moderation is fine. My grasskeets and conure love a bit of peeled apple once in a while.

Pellets is a choice to serve...if not using them and you aren't sure your birds are 100% eating them you can supplement with a powdered vitamin mineral supplement as instructed on the container..it can be given in soft foods. I serve pellets along with seed. Our avian vet mentioned to me in a conversation regarding my conure and keets...I asked about this whole thing about no seed just pellets. She told me there are new studies out that say that contrary to the belief that only pellets should be given...they are now finding out birds need seed with their pellets...limit the fatty seed and do any where from a 50/50 to 80/20 ratio of pellets to seed. I use a 50/50 and do vary it depending on seed mix and soft foods given.

Millet sprays are just another form of seed, it is fine to give. I mentioned soaking seeds to you on another site... you can soak millet sprays for your birds too...triple the nutritional value. http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/featur ... gseeds.php

I raise zebras and societies... I do not house them together, I do not breed the two species together to make a hybrid (this was mentioned in one of your earlier topics) Hybridizing by accident is one thing and it happens in big aviaries where you colony breed but to do it intentionally is discouraged by most especially with the harder and rare species we do not see as much. JMO

After quarantine is done you can introduce both birds into a newly set up cage at the same time, if you have to use an existing cage you can rearrange the perches and set up so there is not preexisting territories established that can cause conflict...most the time if you are introducing the opposite sex doing so in an existing set up usually is ok. Same sex birds I would rearrange the perches and set up a bit. Zebras are a bit tough since they are a bit pushy and aggressive. Societies are very laid back, love being in groups, the more the merrier so rearranging perches and cages may not be necessary. JMO

Beak color on zebras black or touches of black generally indicate the bird is still young, just weaned and likely under 3 months of age... orange (females) or red (males) no black indicated 3 to 4 months or older.

Illness... if your birds are very ill yes if a vet is available take them. Some do not have vets. There are those that can read "poop" and give you their best opinion but it is not exact...it is a guess.

We have one or two folks on one of the groups that are usually spot on but these were people trained by vets. Certain colorations, appearances can be identified as certain problems, again it is a guess. Without seeing what is actually swimming in the droppings... disease, parasite or protozoa you may not get an accurate answer, there can also be multiple issues going on at the same time...what needs to be done is a fecal smear on a slide and the sample looked at under the microscope either a vet can do that or individuals do this with a microscope and a tutorial guide/booklet to guide them. Certain issues may or may not be seen on the slide observation since with some issues the bird may not be shedding parasite during that dropping but may the next time. So more than one slide done at two different times may be needed. Often a vet will look at the sample and may or may not send it off to be looked at closed by a lab, much like they do a dog or cat. Larger birds are easier to treat, small finches often hide what is wrong and show symptoms after being sick for a while and often by the time some symptoms appear the illness has a good foot hold and is hard to cure the bird or damage has been done.

Not everyone has an avian vet nearby.... so folks turn to groups and pages for help.

[Sally]

flymouse You've gotten some good advice already. Just keep in mind that everyone has to work out their own program, what works not only for their birds but for them as well. Someone with a large collection of a variety of breeding/show birds is going to have a much more involved program than someone with a few pet birds.

To me, the most important thing is to enjoy this hobby. If it becomes too much like work, then it may not be fun any longer. You can try out different foods on your birds, try out different ways of doing things, but in the long run, it must work for YOU. Some of us have all day to care for birds, others are squeezing this hobby into a busy schedule of work, school, kids, spouses, other pets.

Egg is a great food for breeding/molting/show birds. It may work better as a treat for a pet bird. Spray millet is a great food for breeding birds, but I don't happen to give it on a daily basis to all birds. Veggies are great foods, a variety is best. Again, you will need to work out what fits into your schedule.

Finch advice is confusing because there are so many different species of finch, with different care requirements. Never ever feel guilty that you aren't providing the same care as someone else, your birds may not need it. Keep in mind that we are all amateurs here, learning as we go. My program has changed from year to year, as I've learned new things, discarded others--you will do the same.

I rarely give medical advice, because I don't feel qualified to do so. I don't have enough experience with illnesses. That doesn't mean I haven't dealt with any, I simply don't know enough. I take the minimalist approach to medicines, I believe that less is better, so I hesitate to give any medication unless I know what I am treating. Keep in mind that it is extremely difficult to diagnose over the internet or over the phone. Even when a bird is taken to an avian vet, they don't always have answers, but at least you can feel that they have the training to deal with illness.

As far as your questions about putting your two birds together, I feel that it doesn't matter whether it is male added to female or vice versa, but both birds should be taken out, perches and foliage should be moved around in the largest cage, and then both birds placed in the cage at the same time.

How long to quarantine? You will find time periods from one week to 6 months. You should decide depending on your circumstances, but many pet owners quarantine for 2-3 weeks. At the end of the quarantine time, you have to evaluate the birds. If you see any signs that are concerning, then you continue the quarantine until you are comfortable putting the birds together. When I first got into finches, I didn't quarantine at all, didn't know I should.

I think new finch owners are often overwhelmed by the sheer volume of conflicting information. Remember that on the internet, anyone can be an expert. Take it slow, work up your own program, and relax and enjoy your birds!

[Sally]

flymouse One more thing, Laraine has been very helpful in the past, but perhaps she has been swamped with so many of us asking questions. She has a business to run, and though she wants to be helpful, she may be limited in her time. She may have decided to pull back a bit, recommending a visit to an avian vet instead. Many sites, including this one, have a disclaimer that they are not responsible for advice given. Ours says "Follow the advice within this forum at your own risk."

[slwatson]

flymouse

I felt very similar to you when I first started with my finches, and even yesterday, I read one website that said finches could have egg food everyday, and another that said once or twice a week. I've learned to try things out and see what my birds respond to the most. I've changed my egg recipe several times....I'm currently using one that Sally shared on the forum recently, and it's the best one I've made so far. It's all trial and error for me. If your birds are happy and healthy, then you're doing it right

[flymouse]

You all are awesome. Sally you made me feel so much better. And you made a 100% sense. The statement you made below really did it.

Sally Said:
You've gotten some good advice already. Just keep in mind that everyone has to work out their own program, what works not only for their birds but for them as well. Someone with a large collection of a variety of breeding/show birds is going to have a much more involved program than someone with a few pet birds.

I think new finch owners are often overwhelmed by the sheer volume of conflicting information. Remember that on the internet, anyone can be an expert. Take it slow, work up your own program, and relax and enjoy your birds!

I do feel so much better. And I know no one on here is a VET unless one joins So I would never blame anyone for wrong advice. But I also know some have seen droppings for different things and know what they are suppose to look like. I never ever cared about droppings 20 years ago when I owned birds and all went fine. But I also never held a Finch and had it love on me before either. So I don't want Lola to die like Sugar did if I can try to prevent it. Sugar also let me hold her and love on her but she was only 3 weeks old when I started. So I was VERY attached to her. ANWAYS I posted some Dropping pics under (Whats Wrong with Sugar) The droppings are Lola's and Zippy's. Trying to find out if they are ok to put together. Thanks again for all your help.

[dunker817]

This has been a very interesting and informative discussion. I agree with Mickey Jo about things being confusing and contradictory. I had to navigate those waters myself being new to finches. I have a couple of Finch books I read and I also joined this forum. The good thing about forums is that you can get many perspectives which is not possible in a book normally.

My vet says 2 weeks quarantine is fine and that is what I have followed with my cockatiels too. Everything else you mention I came up with my own version after getting the perspective of others here. I give egg food every couple of weeks and I offer veggies once per week. They get fresh seed twice per day. So far all of my birds have done well. And I give credit to the members here who share their experience. I would not be where I am in taking of my finches if not for them.

[flymouse]

Wow and I thought no one was answering me. Cindy I'm not sure why I didnt' see your post. I think I read these way to late in the day and am half asleep. Then I read them again with coffee and find things I don't remember reading.

Like Cindy you said on another list you talked to me about soaking seed. I have no idea what you are talking about. So I must of read it late at night. When I read late I do retain things. But that must of gone over my head or out of it.

How do you soak seeds and why? Do you mean soak to sprout. I bought stuff to do sprouting to put on salads.

Cindy your post should be in the FAQ. grin. Or one that is a SUGGESTION for NEWBIES to Feeding Regiment.

[Majd]

flymouse , I'm sorry i only read your first post and it was long enough lol, I didn't read the others (too sleepy)....
Look, just don't freak out and be hardcore and try to do everything everyone says , here you ask for advice people give opinions on what works for them best, and your job is to read, understand and at the end do what suits you best! You do not have to follow what me or whoever tells you to do! Many times i ask a question, i get many answers, some of them work for me, some of them work partially, and some just never do! So if you read contradictions at some point or another, it's doesn't mean either is right, but it is for the author....
And same goes for everyone! So in my opinion, take as much information as you can, but at the end of the day do what you FEEL is best for YOUR birds and YOURSELF! Try to find that magical balance!

[kyle]

After reading this thread it occurs to me that my guys are getting to much of the good stuff. Every day egg, sprouted seed and vegetables/greens. Somehow I was under the impression that was what was best. It seems twice a week would be enough unless they are feeding babies. A broad spectrum on info in this thread very informative.

[cindy]

After reading this thread it occurs to me that my guys are getting to much of the good stuff. Every day egg, sprouted seed and vegetables/greens. Somehow I was under the impression that was what was best. It seems twice a week would be enough unless they are feeding babies. A broad spectrum on info in this thread very informative.

I know big breeders that feed egg food daily whether the birds are breeding or not. I think you need to do what is nutritionally best for your birds... I like to look at what they get in one week, were all their nutritional needs met. I was doing egg food daily and the birds did great. I also served it every other day and they did fine also, alternating veggies with eggfood on non egg food day!

[debbie276]

The problem with feeding a high protein food like hard boiled egg everyday is that some birds don't come out of breeding mode and therefore are not able to rest. I also think which kind, fresh or dried commercial eggfood makes a difference.
Gouldians for example should go into a rest mode after breeding and lowering the protein level decreases their hormone level and allows their gonads and ovaries to shrink and rest, getting them all in sync. This also is the time that they should loose extra weight because fat Gouldians typically have low fertility or simply won’t come into breeding condition at all.

So it really depends on the species as well as your set-up.
If this isn't a problem for you then I wouldn't worry about it so much.