How much squabbling is too much?

[Celeris]

Hey all!

As you may or may not know, I'm looking to combine my three zebra males and two society males into a large flight cage that I recently obtained. At the moment, the large flight cage contains just the one bird and the other four are split into pairs in their own, smaller cages.

Thus far, I have only ever introduced two already bonded pairs to their own cages, so I have no yet tried combining new birds. I plan on removing the one bird from the flight cage, rearranging, and introducing all birds at the same time. There will be plenty of greenery so they have visual relief from one another. I have, of course, been cautioned that the zebras may prove too aggressive for the societies and thus, I may be stuck with two cages after all. However, I would like to at least try for housing them all together.

Being a long time critter person, I've of course watched many an interaction between animals recently introduced to each other, which means I'm braced for a bit of squabbling between the guys. My question, however, is how much is too much? How long have you found, on average, that it takes for a group of birds to become accustomed to one another? Obviously, if I see blood, I will split up the aggressor and the aggressed, but beyond that, what should I watch for? What is natural and what's dangerous?

Also, does anyone foresee trouble with the odd number of three zebras and two societies? I have been hesitant to add another bird for the "odd man out" to bond to because I would rather not start to crowd the guys.

Thanks!

[slwatson]

Celeris

I don't have any experience with zebras, so I can't really help with them. I recently had a situation, however, where I had to remove a male and female pair of society finches because one of them started bullying a gouldian hen. I have flight with five gouldian hens and some societies. They used to get along great, and didn't have any squabbles. There wasn't a nest in the cage either. Out of the blue, one of the societies started continually chasing and harassing a very molted gouldian hen. She kept getting chased away from the food area, and she started sitting on the bottom perch, breathing heavily. That was my cue to move the society and her society mate into a different cage. Now everything is fine. I knew the gouldian would have eventually died because they stress so easily when they're molting. I guess it just depends on the situation and how bad it gets.

[Celeris]

slwatson

Thanks! How long did that go on before you moved your Gould? I work ten hour days and am worried about putting everyone together and then having to leave for work. But I also feel that hovering over the cage all day could prove detrimental more than anything. I just don't wanna leave a birdie gladiator match if it's possible that the zebras will chase the societies to death in a matter of hours, ya know?

[Celeris]

lovezebs

I'd value your input, if you have any. You seem to have a realistic grasp on the aggression of zebras while still loving them as much as I have come to.

[slwatson]

Celeris

I completely understand! Honestly, I only let it go on for about 10 minutes. I wanted to see if the society would stop, but every time that little gouldian went to the food, she got chased away. Do you work on the weekends? If not, maybe that's the best time to add them and then watch from a distance to see if they get along.

[Babs _Owner]

Celeris

Personally the second I saw any bird agressively knock another off the perch in a full attack, that would be the end of their relationship in the cage together.

Example: Societies aren't absolutely peaceful. I tried putting my society hen (Duece) and male (Cacklejack) in a cage with his son and another male.

I watched CackleJax's son dive-attack Cacklejax several times. I thought (being societies) they would calm down. The next day I heard CackleJax shriek in pain, I ran in the room and one of his feathers was broken, another partially pulled out and he was BLOODIED. I immediately pulled CackleJax and his hen Duece out and put them back in their old cage.
Apparently having the hen with 3 boys created big tension.

I will never allow another bird in my room to get dive-attacked again without immediately removing them, as that situation could have ended up tragic. Im incredibly attached to CackleJax (as many here know).

I wanted to free up a cage, but in the end it was more important my dear birds did not hurt each other.

Now you are adding 3 male zebras...Im no zebra expert, but I would assume from other posts that this may not work out well. Those societies may very well end up being attacked.

A bit of beak sparring is common. But one full-on attack, separate them. But that's just what I would do.

[Babs _Owner]

Celeris

Yes your zebras could kill a society in a matter of hours. As Stacie mentioned, what if the zebras denied them access to food and water for hours?

[lovezebs]

Celeris

Hi,

Just saw your post.

I would try this experiment on the first morning of your days off. That way, you'll be around, and will be able to keep an eye on things. Personally, I would add at least one more Societie to the mix, just so as to make sure that the Socies are not outnumbered.

There is really no way of predicting the behavior of individual birds. A bird which might be peaceful under one set of circumstances, may become aggressive under a different set of circumstances.

I would make sure that you have several feeding stations in different areas around the flight, along with several water bottles. Lot's of greenery is a must, along with enough high perches for sleeping (at the same height). Several swings, several spray millet stations, etc.

Now, how much aggression is too much aggression. ....

I make a point of sitting somewhere, where I can observe things, without being too close. If you're too close, they're all going to be watching you, and being on their best behavior.

As Barb mentioned, keep a look out for dive attacks, where one bird physically dives at another and knocks it off the perches. Also watch for individuals who are hogging the food and water cups.

Of course be alert to outright attacks, where one bird throws another to the ground, going into full combat mode, set on murder and mayham.

I kept Zebras with Societies together, for quite some time, untill some of my Zebras decided to go psycho.

It's an experiment, which will take some time and effort on your part, where you have to keep your eyes and ears open to any drastic changes in behavior.

Good luck

[Celeris]

lovezebs

Thank you! Sounds like what I expected--a bit of tussling is no cause for throwing the panic switch, but outright violence is cause for separation. I had heard that keeping numbers even helps, but wasn't certain if that was truth or not. (Heard this from the same friends that gave me the impression zebras and societies could live without a hitch, so questioning the validity of everything they've told me.)

@slwatson Babs

Thank you guys so much! Now that I've got a better idea of what constitutes a dangerous attack, I'll know what to watch for. These guys will be in the living room of my home, so central enough in the house that I can watch out for dive attacks and "resource guarding," but not an area that I'm constantly hovering.


Greatly appreciate y'all chiming in! Your help has been invaluable. I guess we'll see how it all goes!

[Sojourner]

Celeris

1) finches DO need to be in pairs. Even numbers are not a myth

2) How big is this cage you want to put all these birds into?

3) while cross-species pairing does occur, adding another society finch is not your best solution to the pairing issue. Now you have 2 unbonded finches of different species, one of which tends to be much more aggressive than the other. This is riskier than is worthwhile, IMO.

4) Unless the cage is VERY large, mixed species of differing temperaments are unlikely to get along. Even then - its a risk. Severe damage can be inflicted faster than you can break it up. And it can occur at any time. I am homebound and I wouldn't want to take the risk of something going sideways while I'm out of the room. I thought about mixing species and ultimately decided against it for all the reasons others have stated. They can get along for MONTHS and then suddenly, pandemonium. Even within a species such can happen - why run the chances of that up any higher than they have to be?

5) If you add a zebra to bring them up to an even number, now they outnumber the societies significantly. That solution is fine as long as the societies aren't in the same cage.

6) Even with just one species in the cage, make sure you have enough feeding stations so there is one feeder filled with staple seed for each pair, and at least one small treat cup (all of which ALWAYS have seed in them) for each finch - this way all the feeders can't be guarded and one finch kept away from feed. Well, one finch COULD be kept away from all the feeders, but its a lot less likely. Also more than one watering station as well. IF they keep squabbling over feeding stations, make it one feeder of staple seed for each finch. Stress perches. No nests. Widely separated perches for flight space and to allow the finches to get something approaching a little privacy. I saw you would be using plants (fake plants I guess) - that helps.

7) you can easily tell the gender of zebras by looking. Not so societies. How do you know you have two males right now? How can you be sure that if you got one more, it would be a male? Or a female, for that matter.

I don't think you are in a position to try this, given your long hours away from home. I honestly think your best bet is to leave the societies to themselves and add a zebra to the 3 you already have and put them in the larger cage. That's assuming the cage is large enough for that many finches.

A perfect cage for one or two pairs of societies is the Prevue F070/F075 (one has a stand, the other doesn't) - that cage is 36" long (internal dimensions) by 20" high by 18" wide.

Or get the Prevue 30x18x18 flight cage, about $41 I think last I checked on Amazon, or the $50-ish "Finch Habitat" from Petco. It is also 30x18x18. Those are, IMO, only good for ONE pair of any breed of finches, but that's what you have one pair of societies. They'll be happy in that.

Don't think those of us who caution against this are being too timid. I once watched a single zebra female harass and chase every single society in the pet shop cage with her. She kept them huddled together in their nest at times. Otherwise she was chasing them and trying to pluck them. I had to go get someone to remove her from the cage, she was absolutely terrifying every single society in the cage with her. She shouldn't have been in there with them at all, but then they just stuck her back in the zebra cage which was already too full and she promptly became the target in THAT cage. I had to have a talk with the manager. Since then I have never seen so many finches all crowded together, nor species being mixed (in that store at least), but its a shame someone had to tell them that to start with.

Anyway. There are all kinds of stressors that can lead to heightened aggression even within species. Mixed species are not the best place to start when you start keeping finches.

[Celeris]

Well, I'm nearly three hours into all of my guys sharing the large flight cage and so far the biggest "bully" is one of my societies, who won't let any of the zebras share a perch with him and his brother (but isn't actively seeking trouble.) All have eaten, had water, and played around in the bath. They are discovering greenery for the first time--and one zebra in particular is downright obsessed with it. So far, so good.

I have no plans to leave the house or get outside of earshot today, but I'm quite happy with how well everyone seems to be getting on so far. Guess we'll see if things remain this peaceful!

Thanks again for everyone's advice and help!

[wilkifam]

I personally would never mix anything with Zebras but other pushy type bids. Never Societies or Goulds.

[Celeris]

wilkifam

Well, thus far, the societies have the zebras quite under control. Seems like they've got just enough attitude to stand up for themselves. I'd definitely say it's a case-by-case deal, though, based on the stories I've heard.