Mixed symptoms of finch behaviour

[justread]

I'm a new owner, not quite a month. I've searched through the forum here to not ask the same question already asked... I have two society finches, supposedly male and female and though they'd been in a tiny cage at the pet store for a long time, they seemed to be healthy when I brought them home. I don't have (sigh) an aviary, the cage is 32" long.

Preamble, skip if you like:
They fly back and forth merrily, chirp happily when I am in the room and when not, seems like the same song, not a fear call, and they are much calmer now about my hands in the cage, not panicking, just curious. They're an absolute delight to watch in their bath.

They've enthusiastically built a nest in one those rattan conical shapes using a variety of bits I put in the cage.

I change/add to everything in the cage every day very often twice a day, including some type of veggie (not avocado). I clean out the bottom and scrub down the horizontal "wires" at least once a week, though generally more than once, just because I'm checking. ( And sitting there, sitting there, delighting.)

But lately they have been pecking at themselves quite vigorously, under their wings or chins (sorry). And at least one of them, hard to tell who, has white runny poop. The male (I think it's the male) poops in the bath, for sure! So the bath gets changed sometimes 3 x's a day.

If they were molting there would be feathers, right? I think I've found 9 (I uhm kept a couple... don't tell...isn't this like keeping one's first child's baby teeth?)

Everything I've read about mites talks about lethargy, puffing up, irregular behaviour. As far as I can tell they are otherwise normal, except for the self pecking. They eat and drink as they have done, attack the millet as usual and have wild flapping times in the bath, as always.

On white paper, the poops is long thin lines, of course circled by moisture. Occasional larger plop.

It seems like they have spent more time than usual in the nest, but they've only just finished it, and thought that this may indicate they/she was laying. But no eggs.

As I type they're making the slight chirpy sounds, sounds I'd equate to table conversation...

But they are also pecking at themselves A Lot.

Perhaps I am not observant enough. What do you think is happening?

[Paul's Amazing Birds]

Hi,
In my bird experience, self preening is a normal behavior especially if they're in the bird bath a lot. Mine have plenty to do all day so they don't focus on themselves quite as much as yours seem to be doing. Maybe add a swing or two, some greenery, maybe some turf to pick through? Besides a variety of veggies, mine also like to search for dried meal worms and un-shelled sunflower seeds. Spray millet (on the stem) is another big favorite.

Might even be good to give them some free flight time if that's a possibility. You can actually train them to come back in their cage when they get hungry. If I have an occasional escapee, they always come back when they're hungry into a small trap cage for some spray millet.

Nine feathers isn't exactly a molt but they could be growing some new feathers in because of a change in temperature or diet or just the new environment. They sound perfectly healthy to me but a major molt might also be just beginning.

Re:nest building and no eggs...Mine build a nice nest most any time of the year just to sleep in. If eggs don't happen, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you suspect feather mites I would just catch one and open it's wing for a closer examination. You can actually see mites on your hands if they have that problem. A quick mite spray on the birds and in their nesting area should end the problem.

Have fun with your new bird hobby. The first bird I ever owned opened a world of joy for me.
Paul

[justread]

Thanks. I'll get to the pet store for a swing. For now I dangled some twine--I read somewhere that finches liked that as a toy, though it seemed odd until they also yanked on the string I'd hung some strips (sprays?) of millet on. I'd started hanging bits of it in different places in the cage, just for something new to find. I put an extra little food dish in another location now too. Doesn't seem like they're quite sure about it yet.

But of course, because I finally wrote in, they are presently not doing the pecking/preening dance.

I'm not worried about whether or not they produce eggs. If they do, I'll deal with that.

As for letting them out, hmm, I'd love to. Once had a budgie who had almost total free run of the house. Many years ago, and yes, his food was just in his cage. But these guys are in my somewhat small office which has all the accouterments of an office...book shelves, printer, lamps, as well as two large windows, and plants I am not sure are on the "cleared" list, I'd have to check. (One of these is that bug eating pitcher plant, attractive.) If one of these tweeties got behind a big book shelf, I really don't know how I'd get him/her out. Maybe you have suggestions.

What's a trap cage and then how would you, without damage, transfer the bird to the big cage?

I will look into the dried worms. I am not at all squeamish about worms or bugs (well, spiders are not my favourite) etc. But I'm not sure of the consequences of live families.

I'll look into the mite idea. Actually I've never held them. They sort of popped out of the box from the store right into the cage. They've calmed down so much more now, I might be able to catch one.

Poop is still runny. There are 2 dots of some sort on the white paper I have put on the bottom of the cage now, but I don't know if these are mites.

I'm not sure if I am staying within the boundaries of a post in a topic stream.

[cindy]

Mites will not cause the droppings to be runny and thin... could be internal parasites (not mites), Giardia, protozoa, cocci will all make the skin itch
and cause issues with absorption of nutrients and will cause issues with droppings.

Pick them up andexamin there bellies, if thin in the belly and breast bone it is likely more than mites.

[Paul's Amazing Birds]

Good points above from Cindy.
Here's more on Millet:

Millet is one of the better carbohydrate sources for birds because it is highly digestible. Many grains acidify in the stomach, but millet is highly alkaline to counteract acids and digest more easily. It is also an excellent source of protein, with one of the highest amino acid profiles of all the cereal grains.

Low in fat, millet supplies Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B6, folate, and Vitamin K, as well as the minerals calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, copper, zinc, manganese, iron, and potassium. And, because millet is high in B vitamins, it is also a natural stress-reliever for birds providing entertaining foraging fun.

ABBA Seed sells this on line for 6.00/lb. They also carry swings, dried meal worms and various types of miticides if you need that.

These birds will never be hand tame but they will come out of hiding (behind books etc.) if a little food and water is in an obvious spot near the cage and the cage itself has all their favorite treats inside. Took me 24 hours to catch a bird that escaped and hid on the shelves in my garage once.
To catch your birds in their cage for an exam, I would turn off the lights and use a flash light on and off to make the job faster and easier.

Below is a pic of my portable "trap cage" but you don't need anything like that for just a few birds. Just use their own cage with a string to pull the door shut. I use this one in March, mostly to pair up exceptional birds for breeding.

Paul

[cindy]

Mites will not cause the droppings to be runny and thin... could be internal parasites (not mites), Giardia, protozoa, cocci will all make the skin itch
and cause issues with absorption of nutrients and will cause issues with droppings.

Pick them up andexamin there bellies, if thin in the belly and breast bone it is likely more than mites.

sorry about the typo's

should read pick them up and examine their bellies, if thin in the belly, lumpy instestines, then breast bone it is likely more than mites.

[justread]

Thank you to both of you for the time you have taken to reply.

So, do I go to a pet store for a "take an aspirin, and call me in the morning" catch-all treatment for the above, or attempt to find a bird vet? Small town, there must be someone, but I don't know. And, where I live, this Monday is a holiday. I don't know if a Saturday on a long weekend is overtime or not.

I've been trying to judge by profile if there is any indentation, and yes possibly so. Definitely can see a line. Hard to say, I suppose I've spent my time examining their antics not their physique. I'll have to try the flashlight technique, carefully.

They always have millet in their cage, and yes, do enjoy it. I think they enjoy the play of getting at it as well.

The fresh piece of white paper I put in the bottom has squiggly and/ or white poop. Again.

I guess I'll have to consider the parasite issue. Thanks.

Slipped into the pet store at 5 minutes to closing and now have a swing in the cage. Neither of them have figured it out yet even though I hung millet so that the easiest access would be from the swing...

Letting them out. Hhm. Perhaps I'll make sure they are well first. My desk lamp is (twirly) florescent, and not hot. I'll look around for possible problem areas, and consider the idea. Aside from my keyboard and eep some of the art, (I do dimensional multi-media works and though animal hair and bird feathers have been used, I actually have never used feces of any species) bird poop wouldn't be a big deal. If it isn't runny, even a drop on books or files isn't a problem.
I guess I'll find a way to come back to your suggestions to let you know how it all evolves. They are a lovely addition to my life. I turn off the radio, (I ditched my TV a decade ago), and phone, then sit in here with their chirping. Prefer their song to the Zebra finch.
Thanks again.

[justread]

Hi,

Well it appears that the nearest avian vet is at least an hour's drive away, which is rather stressful for these guys. The pet stores tell me that they either have nothing, or suggest odd things, and one said "We can't sell anything for internal problems because that is considered medicine."

I don't know how they could have got the parasite. I've really been diligent about keeping the water clean and the bottom cleared out. (Oddly enough they only poop in one section of the cage.)

Hhm. Well, they are still flying around, eating, drinking, bathing, ripping at the kale, and making funny faces at each other.

[cindy]

they can carry it within them and then molting, stress, stress from breeding or they can't hold it off any longer they show signs.

Glamgouldians.com carries a wide aassortment of avian products.

[justread]

Hi,

So, $50 later ... what they have are symptoms of an overly enthusiastic owner (mother...) giving them too much food variety in a perhaps yet fairly new environment. So, let's call it stress poop.

So, I'll stick with kale, which the pet store used, for a while, and offer something new only occasionally. They still have fresh water, food, millet and bath every day and I keep the cage buffed, so I'll hope for the best.

Nightmare to catch them and put them in travel cage, where they were, oddly, quite perky. Then another nightmare putting them back. Daylight. Next time, let them overnight in travel cage, vet said, so the flashlight technique can be used. (Can't cover my big windows)
They are now a bit edgy with me again, with my hands in the cage. Ah well, we'll get to be friends again.

Confirmed genders. Said they looked otherwise healthy though advised that health can change quickly. Thank you to all to offered advice. I'm relieved that I can continue to enjoy their tender cheeping, and enthusiastic cherps.