Frustrating black spot!!!

[MisterGribs]

So recently, I incubated two abandoned zebra finch eggs to hatching term.. One drowned from being malpositioned upside down and pipping the wrong end. The other was fully formed, but failed to hatch and seemed to have a very swollen, black liver when I removed it from the shell to see what went wrong.

Ten or eleven days later, the hen laid another egg, which she promptly tried to abandon until I removed all other possibilities at creating a new nest, put all the seed dishes close to the nest, etc and finally sat tight.

It was two days overdue when the chick pipped externally and took its first breaths, then suddenly my hen decided she didn't want it after all and tossed it. I found it on the floor of the cage, cold, and seeming to have bled a little, but luckily alive since the cage floor was heavily padded. I warmed it and kept the membranes moist in the brooder until it finished hatching. It lived for only 12 hours, feeding, pooping and begging like a normal chick and then suddenly went to sleep and very gradually stopped breathing. I was able to restart the breathing for just a few more breaths, and then it died once and for all.

And then I noticed it. Another swollen, black area near the liver just under the right leg. This was the second chick that had this strange black spot that isn't supposed to be there, and when I looked online, I found all kinds of confusing, multi-explanation for this black mystery spot, all with the same ''guaranteed-dead-chick'' prognosis.
I took out the nest, and decided not to let the hen breed again until I understand more about this weird symptom of so many deadly things, and how to prevent it. I've been struggling the best I could to help my darling idiots reproduce, but we just aren't having any luck,!

The cage is kept very clean, the pair is regularly treated with ivermectin, proper food, vitamins, protein and safe, clean greens are provided adamantly. I would really love to have a zebra finch I've known from birth, but I'm afraid to try again until I can figure out what has caused this. Does anyone here have any experience with this?

[debbie276]

Curious why they are "regularly treated with ivermectin "

[MisterGribs]

debbie276 Because my avian vet seems to think they regularly have air sac mites.

I have an older bird that loses his voice constantly, and her recommended treatment is a month long once-weekly ivermectin course for him, and afterward, to treat all the birds every month to prevent them coming back.

It doesn't seem to help my older bird any, but there's a whole other frustration thread about this issue.

She recently gave me selamectin in the form of Stronghold. For dogs.
I don't particularly like it, but she's the avian veterinarian with a degree and not I.

The last time the old cock was treated with selamectin was on the 15th of feb, and all others were treated with ivermectin. She declines to do a swab or, more recently, outright ignores me if I ask for one.

All I want to do is provide the best care for my birds, but to be honest, I am feeling quite alone regarding their health and well-being.

[debbie276]

Seems excessive to me. If they are not exposed to air sac mites from another bird, you shouldn't need to treat over and over.

[MisterGribs]

debbie276 That's what I had originally tried to reason with her about, insisting that it had to be something else (Hence will you please swab my poor bird) but she insisted that's what he has, and since he has them, the other birds must have them as well.

After this last treatment, I had simply switched to honey and steam, which seems to help, but now my other pair is producing chicks with this mysterious one-of-many-causes black spot disease and I have nowhere to turn to and no idea if the cause is related or coincidental bacteria. Even if I had a microscope, the virus is so incredibly tiny that I might not be able to see it with one commercially available, and I don't have the training to recognize it, or the authority to get a rx on my own.

It's so frustrating, as nobody else reasonably near me will see my birds other than this 'avian specialist' prescribing dog medicine to my flight. She had a snake and two rabbits in her office as well as a minpin, so I question just how specialized she is.

A lot of people tell me They are 'just a bird' and to just 'get a new one.' I'll wager they haven't got very happy pets at home... Or very old ones, for that matter.

So I guess I'll just have to give up on seeing a zeeb from start to finish until I can figure out what is happening to my birds.

[debbie276]

Might be worth contacting to see if they can help you
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/features_blackspot.php

[MisterGribs]

debbie276 This is exactly what both the chicks looked like, right in that exact spot.

Thank you for your advice, I'll drop them a line and see if they can help me at least rule out some of the possible causes.

[lovezebs]

MisterGribs

I'm sorry about the poor little infant.....

[MisterGribs]

lovezebs Me too! I feel so terrible for it. It was so strong and eager to feed, survived such a long drop, and lifted its head in just an hour or so after hatching. It came as a total shock that it died!

The mother must have sensed something wrong with it that I didn't. I'm scared to try again. I took the nest out, and Vilu was not happy about it, but I think it's for the best.

[lovezebs]

MisterGribs

Oh sweetie, I know what you mean, it's so so hard.
Read this old thread of mine, and it will give you an idea of how heartbreaking it can be....

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php ... 98&start=0

But...

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31042

And...

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32833

in the end it's all worthwhile.....

[MisterGribs]

lovezebs yes, I'm a firm believer in trying your hardest! If it doesn't work out, at least you have learned something.

I'm afraid I've reached a dead end at the moment, and the wellbeing of my birds is more important than wringing a surviving clutch out of Vilu. I've had a lot of hands-on experience with adult birds and nestlings, but never hatching an egg.. And this is the first I've heard of black spot.

I have a very uncooperative vet, whose help I desperately need to move further in my endeavors.

There's just so many things that could cause it, I don't know where to start.. Even the dried poop stuck to the side of the egg could have caused it!

[lovezebs]

MisterGribs

Don't give up too soon my friend.

[Babs _Owner]

MisterGribs

If you found the chicks in the shell with black spot, would that mean the parents are 'carriers", as per the article debbie posted?

Ask your vet directly about the young being hatched, and even inside the egg having that "spot"

See if you can get a straight answer.

[MisterGribs]

Babs I will, but if she claims it was air sac mites, I just might start feather plucking.

[MisterGribs]

Babs as for the 'carrier' issue, it could be, if the blacck spot was caused by one of the several viruses that can cause it. But if it was bacterial related, parasitic, or mycotoxin related, then they might not be. I have no way of telling how the eggs were contaminated without the help of the vet.