Gouldians Molting Q?

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:21 pm

I am one of those breeders that is willing to sell juveniles un-molted or mid-molt.
I don't do this because I 'care more about the money,' although I can certainly see how some breeders would so I can see where the stigma would come from.

I would never ship unmolted juveniles or sell to someone who lived extremely far away, and I would hesitate to sell to first-time gouldian owners or someone with no experience caring for birds.

I have sold multiple juveniles and I have never had a single problem.
I have never had a bird die, get stuck in molt, or have any complaints from the new owners (who have always kept in touch with me and in multiple instances have come back for additional birds).

I try not to rest or base my decisions on anecdotal accounts, especially since I have personally not had a single problem.
In fact, I have often had juveniles sold molt faster than the juveniles I've kept back for myself.

I believe it is a personal preference, and I think it is a little unfair to type-cast all breeders willing to sell unfeathered juveniles, especially since I've never been a party to all of the problems other individuals claim will happen or exist with this practice.

Rest assured - the second something goes wrong, I'd re-evaluate this practice, but I have not seen any reason to hold back on offering unfeathered birds (especially to fellow breeders) when I haven't personally run into any problems with it.
JMO though :)

Post by **Sally** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:25 pm

You make a good point, Tiffany, and you speak from experience. Many of the opinions we all have come from reading about it, or limited experience. It is always good to hear both sides. I have done most selling at marts, so I would not want to sell a molting bird to a novice owner, not only for the bird's sake, but I don't want the new owner to start their finch adventure with possible problems. From a personal standpoint, I am not strong on genetics, so when I have fully-molted birds for sale, the buyer can see what they are getting, as I certainly can't always predict what that baby is going to look like.

We all have to develop our own system for keeping our birds, as what works for one may not be the answer for someone else.

summert85 · Post by **summert85** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:33 pm

L in Ontario wrote:They are both very pretty and looks like they are almost done molting now.

Thank you LIZ.

I can't wait to breed them.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:37 pm

You make a good point yourself in terms of color mutations - one I didn't think about initially.

It doesn't immediately spring to mind for me just because I don't colony breed and I keep meticulous records on my breeding pairs and babies.
I can usually tell you exactly what every baby I have is genetically.
Sometimes there are instances where there is no way for me to visually tell a split and I make this abundantly clear, but this would the case before and after molting.
I.e., I just traded a dilute male with a breeder friend and he is Purple breasted, but I know he is split for either Lilac or White. There's no way for me to know off hand which he's split for, I just know he is (his father is Lilac/White, mother is Purple/Purple).

I can almost always ID mutations a couple days after hatching, or on hatching, so I've been lucky with that, too, and I have never been wrong in terms of sexing juveniles :)

All of the birds I have sold have been sold out of my home. But I will be attending my first Bird Mart/Fair in May for Baltimore Bird Fanciers and I certainly will not be bringing unfeathered juvies to this, so that makes sense to me as well!

L in Ontario · Post by **L in Ontario** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:50 pm

You certainly have a gift for ID'ing young hatchlings re colour and genetics, Tiffany!

atarasi · Post by **atarasi** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:52 pm

I don't sell or place my juvenile Gouldians before they molt for a few reasons....and they are both selfish.

1) I like to watch them go from a drab green/gray/yellow juenvile to a beautiful work of art.
2) Even though it might be obvious what mutation the juveniles are going to be, I still like to to see the qualities that it received from the parents to see if it was a good pairing.

I think selling Gouldian juveniles before their molt is another one of those "rules" that people follow blindly. What works for one, doesn't work for another. Sometimes rules need to be pushed. The reason, I feel, that a lot of Gouldian breeders wait until they are colored up is because they get more money for them.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:11 pm

atarasi wrote:I don't sell or place my juvenile Gouldians before they molt for a few reasons....and they are both selfish.

1) I like to watch them go from a drab green/gray/yellow juenvile to a beautiful work of art.
2) Even though it might be obvious what mutation the juveniles are going to be, I still like to to see the qualities that it received from the parents to see if it was a good pairing.

I think selling Gouldian juveniles before their molt is another one of those "rules" that people follow blindly. What works for one, doesn't work for another. Sometimes rules need to be pushed. The reason, I feel, that a lot of Gouldian breeders wait until they are colored up is because they get more money for them.

And yet additional good points!! :) I have always kept back at least one baby from a pairing, but I am also not a big time breeder with multitudes of space so sadly I can't keep everything.
This is a very good point, though, because how can I know I am keeping the absolute "pick of the litter" if I don't wait for them to molt out?
I don't like thinking that when I buy, I'm buying the "mediocre" stock because the breeder is keeping the best for themselves.
I guess in this sense, my buyers have an advantage, because the babies I choose to hold back I usually choose based on mutation. So I might have 3 REALLY nice yellows - but if I don't need them, they were simply the product of a pairing to produce sibling mutations I actually wanted, they'll be sold. I.e., I have two DF Yellows right now I am offering for sale, as they were the result of a pairing I used to produce some RH Dilutes that I've really wanted, and I don't particularly need these DF Yellows :)

I also don't charge a reduced price for juveniles like some do - mostly because I do know in nearly every case exactly what they'll be visually.

I am starting to think, based on simply these recommendations (which are more intelligent business decisions than simply saying the birds will get stuck in molt) that perhaps I should start holding more back as juveniles!

atarasi · Post by **atarasi** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:13 am

I have seen juvenile Gouldians for sale at a local bird mart. A lot of the other Gouldian breeders didn't approve from what was said. The problem with her flight of juveniles was that she didn't know what colors they were going to be nor could she tell any of them apart.
From someone not knowing all the mutations available out there, it might have been interesting to see what you're gonna get down the road!

Perhaps the reason for all the uproar on selling juveniles is the competition. "You can't sell your juveniles if they aren't colored up because I can't sell mine either!" There are a lot of aspects about finches that I really enjoy. The campiness from a lot of the breeders at the bird marts gets to be a little too much for me. One reason why I got out of breeding and showing my dogs.

What I'm going to take away from this post is that selling unfeathered juveniles isn't as taboo as I once believed...and I have a different perspective. I have a lot of respect for Tiffany and if only I had half the knowledge on her grasp of genetics I'd be happy. I do still like the idea of seeing them color up little by little. It's an amazing transformation and you only get to see it once in every bird.

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:33 am

Well as a learner, I have asked the question and received different answers on selling my juvies. I had a man who wanted to buy 10 a few months ago.

I asked the question before selling them because I didn't know what to do.....(isn't this how we all learn?) Of course I had several different responses. I think it is like anything else..... we have to do what WE think is best. If we sell these birds we are responsible for their well being. At least initially.....

Anyway, they were going to an experienced breeder so I went ahead and let him have them. All birds did fine and are now completely molted out. They had just begun their molt when he got them.

Not sure I would do that again as I have often wondered what colors all of them turned out to be. I may have lost one I wanted to keep.

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:20 am

Exactly :)
This year is when I will start actively pursuing producing my own blues.
I also have a particular genetic project underway which is to produce BH, Lilac or White Breast, SF Yellow Blues (would be pastels with a purple breast, but the Lilac or White makes them appear silver, though it is a bit darker in coloration). It's obviously not a rare mutation or anything, just a project of mine. I just think this mutation on males is stunning. I'm halfway there right now :)
Either way, when I start getting my blues, I will definitely be waiting until they molt so I know exactly how they turn out.

MLaRue · Post by **MLaRue** » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:34 pm

This was a good thread.

Good points from everyone.

I like to keep mine until they are finished molting too. I breed for conformation and color and you just can't get a good feeling on either until they are molted out. The red line would be a good example for color...

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:42 am

MLaRue wrote:This was a good thread. Good points from everyone.

I like to keep mine until they are finished molting too. I breed for conformation and color and you just can't get a good feeling on either until they are molted out. The red line would be a good example for color...

Misty I am so glad that you are becoming active on this forum.
You have MUCH experience to share with all of us.

MLaRue · Post by **MLaRue** » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:05 pm

Thanks Donna.

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Gouldians Molting Q?

Selling Juvenile Gouldians