stuck in molt

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:20 am

I have a gouldian that I have been watching for a while that I beileve to be stuck in a molt. It has been strange because the top of it's head is colored up some, none of it's body.

Anyway.... this morning I found it on the floor of the aviary. I have put it into a cage with millet and NV and made the room especially warm.....

It won't fly or move. Just sitting there. I dipped its beak into the water and left it be. I am very concerned about it.

I guess my question is..... do they sometimes die while molting like this? I haven't had this to happen before and I am very concerend about this little baby...

poohbear · Post by **poohbear** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:50 am

It happens with young gouldians Donna...the first moult is a very precarious time for some.
I've been lucky over the years with a very low mortality rate.But some over here lose up to 50% of theirs in the first six months.
Why them and not me I have no idea,although inbreeding might be a factor.

CandoAviary · Post by **CandoAviary** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:41 am

Sorry to hear about the "under the weather chick"
I agree with Poohbear, This has to be the roughest time on goulds. Anything can cause problems, inbreeding, stress, chill, changes, being the last on the pecking order and on and on.You have done the best thing, seperate, heat, and give it millet spay, most chicks will eat this regardless...it may keep him alive until he is a little stronger.
I always watch my youngsters closely, once I pull them from their parents and put them in a grow out flight cage some will color up fast, I continue to move these early bloomers out because if I don't it seems to stress the late bloomers...they tend to get stressed. I posted about an experiment I tried with this very thing. As soon as I moved the dominant maturing chicks(early color) another that seemed to be 'stuck' colored out within 2 weeks.I would move those out...all the time adding new fledglings to the mix...... I continued to see the same results...a couple would color and the rest would kind of have a slow molt process until I moved the colored.... I have not lost one since I started this practice.
I did lose a few when I kept all the goulds juevies together..... I always try and keep the first and strongest maturing bird for future breeding, this way the fittest are the lines that carry on.
Good luck with this little bird.

L in Ontario · Post by **L in Ontario** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:02 pm

While I've not lost any during the moulting timeframe - I may try what Candace does as I have more that are slow moulters than the one or two fast moulters. Although I don't understand how moving the fast moulters out would entice the slower ones to 'get it done' any quicker...

Good luck with yours Donna - I know you're doing the best for him.

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:15 pm

Thanks for the advice and tips. I have left all my molting gouldians together because I always heard that moving them during a molt wasn't good. In my opinon a move is a move. Weather it be to another large cage in my house or to someone who purchases it. The bird doesn't know.....

I have never lost one molting yet at least, but I may this time.

He is in a cage with millet , soaked seed and Nv water. It has eat a little, but is sleeping ALOT. I have the room very warm with a heat lamp over him also, but I am expecting te worse here.

This bird has been a very odd color from the get go, but has not appeared to be ill until this morning.

lovemyfinch · Post by **lovemyfinch** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:32 pm

Wishing you the best of luck Donna, my prayers are with you.

CandoAviary · Post by **CandoAviary** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:51 pm

Poor little bird...I hate it when things like this happen, we feel so helpless. I have you and birdie in my prayers.

Liz... I got this idea from when I bred chiclid fish. The young grow out rate depends on the space..size of aquarium, and hormones in the water, and dominance. As the first fish mature they dominate the tank. (some by growth hormones that prohibit the others from maturing ..you can combat this with frequent water changes.) But the pecking order also plays a role. The lesser/weaker/inmature fish would stay in the juevinile color that resembles the females colors. This way the dominant males do not pick on them as much. The young fish can go about his business in peace. If you remove the dominant grown fish you will see that very rapidly a few will turn color and grow extremely fast into the rulers of the tank...the process continues until all are adults. If you do not remove the dominant they will kill most of the others in time.
Since we keep our birds in close quarters compared to the wild I wondered if they too would suffer from this syndrome...thus the experiment started. I am convinced that the pecking order in close proximety has a lot to do with it. If you watch them closely...sometimes for several hours you will notice this pecking order among the young. The colored ones are always at the top.
I also have noticed that it is usually a male that subcombs to moult death.
Is this a male Donna?
Puppies in a litter do the same thing, you have your alpha right down to the submissive...one ruling the other.
It is just the nature of things. In the wild it is the way that the fittest, strongest, toughest survive to carry on their genes.

Finch Fry · Post by **Finch Fry** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:54 pm

Good luck donna

CandoAviary · Post by **CandoAviary** » Sun May 03, 2009 12:57 pm

I also move them into 24" cages on racks that hold 4. I put the cages back to back and side by side so that the birds are still in close proxemity to one another. I also leave them in the same bird building. They can still see the parents and all familiar surroundings, same temp, same food, same light, same everything. This type of move is far different than a move to a new home where many varitables are different ie, food, water, cage, light, temp, sounds, other birds, seed cups, and mutitudes of other things.

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Sun May 03, 2009 1:47 pm

CandoAviary wrote:I also move them into 24" cages on racks that hold 4. I put the cages back to back and side by side so that the birds are still in close proxemity to one another. I also leave them in the same bird building. They can still see the parents and all familiar surroundings, same temp, same food, same light, same everything. This type of move is far different than a move to a new home where many varitables are different ie, food, water, cage, light, temp, sounds, other birds, seed cups, and mutitudes of other things.

okay... so this move would make sense. They would not be in a strange enviroment. And yes.... this bird is a male. If he gets to looking better, I am going to take a picture. I don't want to post a picture of a sick looking bird. That bothers me when I see others like that........

CandoAviary · Post by **CandoAviary** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:17 pm

I sure hope that this little fellow perks up.
I have also noticed that it is always a male that is the first to color out. As the females color and mature they are seldom harassed... maybe a little amongst themselves. It is always the last male to color out that falls prey to this moult death. He will always be the low on the pecking order. Even if removed and saved ,when put back in with the others he will be the low bird on the pecking order...... sometimes making for not a very good stud bird. Has anyone else ever noticed this?
Maybe it is just me...I have always been fascinated by 'Why'... I can turn anything into a sientific experiment... I have one of those inquiring minds

Maybe other breeders can start posting on their observations... maybe it is something the experts haven't noticed because they observe the birds in the wild, zoos, or large aviaries...unlike the small breed cages/holding flights/overstocked aviaries, etc. that we seem to offer. I think if we are to keep these birds captive we ought to do our best to learn about thier phsycies.... possibly we could shed some light on this early moult problem and contribute greatly to the birdkeeping community. Anyone interested in joining this observation please do so. You can post the results of your observation on this topic ...if Donna doesn't mind ... or PM me or leave results on my web site.

L in Ontario · Post by **L in Ontario** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:25 pm

I agree moving within the same area / room is much different and practically no stress compared to moving to a new owner / home. They see and hear the same birds and get the same temperatures, food & water, and ever the air is the same.

I've also read that juvies will actually encourage each other to eat more on it's own but maybe that's just when they are moved away from the parents to a juvie only cage...?

CandoAviary · Post by **CandoAviary** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:58 pm

I have noticed that the juvies will eat better amongst themselves. I have seen one go to the feed bowl and the rest will follow even if they just ate.
I believe that the position at the food bown and the picking of roosting spots are the beginning of the pecking order.... I think it is best to keep all fledgling together letting them be social. I only start to seperate them once coloring and obvious domination is apparent. Then I only move the maturing ones.

dfcauley · Post by **dfcauley** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:15 pm

Donna doesn't mind at all.....

I have always kept my gouldian babies together in the aviary with their parents until I rehome them. I have never had any problems with molting or agression with them They have great parents and I hope that they will learn to be great parents from being with them.

I would love to hear poohbears opinon on this as he is very successful with gouldians.

I just rehomed a male with Dianna from the forum along with two hens from this same clutch that were completely colored. This one that is sick is their brother...... and he has hardly any color on him at all. He has been singing away and just fine until today....

I am just guessing that this is from molt. It may not even be related, but have no idea what else it could be.

I am pretty sure it is molt because of the odd way he is trying to color and the odd color he is.

Anyway.... he is hanging on, but not looking good. Poor little thing.

I soaked some seeds, sprinkled on some thrive and put it on the floor of the cage. Not sure he is eating though......

nixity · Post by **nixity** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:47 pm

How old is he Donna?

Could this just be failure to thrive and not connected to the molt at all? How long ago was this chick weaned?

Can you crop dose him with some electrolytes or the NV powder?

I feel like hydration is the number one thing at this point as well as possibly getting some food into him. If you have any baby formula, you could mix a slurry of some baby food and the NV powder (or Thrive if you have it) and crop dose him with that.

I recently went through something similar with a just weaned chick, and a combination of these plus some herbal techniques saved him.
It's the only time I tried these drastic measures because I never thought, once they got to this point, that anything could be done to bring them back from the edge. But I was wrong. He started pulling through immediately after crop dosing, and with the continued crop doses plus herbal meds he was 100% recovered in three days.