Baytril the only option?

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Baytril the only option?

Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:19 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm still very new to Finches. I've posted here before in this thread to give you a little bit of a background on these birds.

http://www.finchforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5228

The finch that you see as my avatar, Poppy, started acting sick over the memorial day weekend. I couldn't get an emergency vet to see him. They just refused. I called several in the area. Poppy passed away that Sunday night. I had a necropsy done on his little body. While waiting on the results another little one passed. The doctor said that the results were inconclusive on the necropsy and she really needed droppings from a live bird. I took those to her on Wednesday and the results weren't back until Monday afternoon. She said there was a small amount of bacteria and she was prescribing Baytril to be given to all of my remaining finches. I picked the meds up Tuesday afternoon. I'm to give it with a syringe every day until the meds are gone. Well, as nervous about this as I was I just gave them their first dosage. I put it off 2 days for fear of hurting them. I've read how finches can aspirate easily if you use syringes to force anything into their beaks. I successfully administered meds to 3 finches. Then I came to Cricket, who is the most trusting Finch in the world I believe. She's blind and is missing a foot and will hop right into my hand. So I begin to give her the meds and she seems to have breathed it in instead of swallowing. I did this about 15 minutes ago and she's still having trouble. She sneezed for a while and was breathing weird. Now she's just sitting in the same spot, which isn't like her. I'm scared to death to give the meds to the rest of them. This is only the first day!! I don't know what to do?! Isn't there a better way than forcing it into their beaks like this and risking me doing it wrong? I've heard of antibiotics for their water and asked the vet about them. She said that they may not drink the water. They might refuse to drink it and die? I have doubts about this vet already, so I'm asking you all. Is there anything else I can do or is this the only choice? The rest of the birds seem fine right now. They're all acting normal...playing and singing. With the exception of Cricket, who is now scaring her mommy to death.

Other doubts about this vet I have are:

*She refused to see the sick bird as she said Finches are too frail by the time they begin to show symptoms and may pass during an exam.

*She told me that probiotics after antibiotics are not necessary as Finches do not have ANY bacteria, good or bad, in their systems. She said people that try to sell you probiotics for Finches are scamming. I've read the opposite here and other sites, so who do I believe?

*Also, I feel this vet didn't seem to care as much about the finches as she does my parrots. She had no sense of urgency when it came to the bird that died after Poppy. She didn't really even try I don't think.

That's all secondary to the big question, though. Is there a better way to give antibiotics that doesn't risk their lives?

Thank you all in advance for any help.

~Rischa (one very upset Finchy Mom)
~Rischa & The Finchies

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Post by L in Ontario » Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:29 pm

I've used Baytril a couple of separate times for my finches. I received it in diluted form from the vet and gave it as the only source of water for my finches to drink for 10 days. They did not hesitate to drink it... and got better.

Most vets that have bird experience have much more parrot experience and very little finch experience. Though I think most times it's true, by the time you get a finch to a vet it's basically too late. But if you do bring it in to them, the vet should try their damnedest to save it!

Sorry to hear of your losses - I hope the rest survive and thrive!
Liz

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Post by dfcauley » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:26 pm

Hi,

Sorry to hear of your difficult time.

I agree with Liz that most vets just do not want to fool with finches and know very little about them.

I personally would not give this medication to them by mouth. I would get something that could be mixed into their water. They will drink it.

I hope things get better for you. Please keep us posted.
Donna

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Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 3:43 pm

Thanks so much for both of your replies. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.

Can you tell me more about what I should ask my vet for when I call her back? Was it Baytril that your birds took in their water and what dosage? Was it flavored? Anything else you think I should ask about or request?

What about the OTC broad spectrum antibiotics available for birds? Do those work or are they "too diluted to be helpful" as my vet suggests?
~Rischa & The Finchies

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Post by the.puppeteer » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:12 pm

Hi Rischa,

I agree with the vets that often bringing them in will do them more harm than leaving them at home with a heat lamp - a lot of stress to be caught, put in a small cage, traveling, caught again by the vet, examined, put back into small cage, travel home, and then caught once more to go back into the regular cage.

I've brought three finches to the vets: The first was pointless - we panicked over some yolk on the bottom of the cage without shell anywhere (first time they'd laid an egg - they likely ate the shell). Vets didn't really know much more than us so the hen ended up getting a lot of unnecessary stuff and stress. The second and third times the birds were sick and both died 1 and 4 days after being at the vets (both were on baytril that was administered in the water).

Did your vet show you how to medicate them properly? I recently fostered a cockatiel that was on Baytril 2x a day for 14 days and metacam (anti-inflammatory) 2x a day for 5 days. The trick is to go very slowly. Place the tip of the syringe in one side of the beak and aim to the back of the other side of the beak - not the throat! - VERY slowly push the plunger so the liquid just dribbles out. I stopped after squirting out a little to let her swallow before continuing - otherwise she'd shake her head when we finished and everything that was in her mouth sprayed everywhere.

How much baytril are you giving them and for how long? Please do not stop giving them the antibacterial once you start, you must follow through to the end date or the bacteria present may evolve a resistance to it.

Don't give up, you can do this with patience and your birds will thank you in the end. It does get easier with practice. :wink:

-Julie
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Owned by: Blue-capped Cordon Bleu, Goldbreasts, Gouldians, Owls, Pintail Whydahs, Societies, Stars, Strawberries, Zebras, 3 ferrets, 2 cats and 2 Kakariki.

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Post by dfcauley » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:23 pm

Sounds like you have been given some very good advice and excellent directions.

I have never administered meds by mouth, but then again I just hand fed so I suppose it comes with practice. :lol:

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. Please keep us posted.
Donna

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Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:34 pm

Hi Julie,

The vet's assistant told me how to administer the meds. They didn't say the part about aiming toward the back of the other side of the mouth unless I just didn't hear that part. That's good to know. The rest they did tell me. Although, it would be nice to know any tips or tricks to get them to open their mouths without me having to force them open. They sure don't want things shooved in there! Not that I can blame them.

The dosage is a hair under the .1 line. She marked it in permanent marker for me. I'm to give this once a day until the medicine is gone. She said it should last around 10 days.

I just called the vet's office and the vet is not back in the office until Monday, so getting her to give me meds for their water isn't a possibility until at least Monday, if she would even do it then.

She did mention, when I talked to her before, the same thing you say here, "Please do not stop giving them the antibacterial once you start, you must follow through to the end date or the bacteria present may evolve a resistance to it." Just like humans in that respect, eh? It looks like I'll just have to keep giving the med in the syringe as I don't want the bacteria to become super bacteria.

I'm still feeling extremely nervous about this. I can handle the catching them part, it's the sneezing and breathing weird that I'm scared of. Wish me luck.

And if any of you come up with something I need to know please continue to reply to this thread. I've got the "notify me" box checked so I won't miss anything.
~Rischa & The Finchies

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Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:37 pm

Thanks, Donna. You must have replied while I was composing. I will reply to this thread with updates.
~Rischa & The Finchies

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Post by B CAMP » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:46 pm

You have the best people giving you advise and most of all you want to help your finches and like they said you can do this without it they won't get better good luck [-o<
Bill

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Re: Baytril the only option?

Post by DVBourassa » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Finchy_Artist wrote:*She told me that probiotics after antibiotics are not necessary as Finches do not have ANY bacteria, good or bad, in their systems. She said people that try to sell you probiotics for Finches are scamming. I've read the opposite here and other sites, so who do I believe?
The vet is wrong. Finches have bacteria in their digestive tracts. Her telling you that they don't is an appalling notion. I wonder where she got her degree.
The advantages of probiotics is debatable but certainly won't hurt the birds.
Finchy_Artist wrote:*Also, I feel this vet didn't seem to care as much about the finches as she does my parrots. She had no sense of urgency when it came to the bird that died after Poppy. She didn't really even try I don't think.
Well, many people feel finches are disposable. Especially Zebs since they are so inexpensive. We know they're not.
Finchy_Artist wrote:That's all secondary to the big question, though. Is there a better way to give antibiotics that doesn't risk their lives?
http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/shoppi ... th-med.mgi
There are several broad spectrum antibiotics here that can be administered in drinking water.
-Dianna

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Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:22 pm

The vet is wrong. Finches have bacteria in their digestive tracts. Her telling you that they don't is an appalling notion. I wonder where she got her degree.
The advantages of probiotics is debatable but certainly won't hurt the birds.
That's what I thought about the bacteria in their digestive tracts, too, as I've read this on a number of sites since aquiring these finches. Which leads me to another question:

My vet said that only a tiny amount of bacteria showed up in the culture, so if she thinks there should be ZERO bacteria and she's wrong, then how do I know if I should even be treating my little guys? The remaining birds seem very healthy acting to me....although I realize I'm no expert or vet. I know they hide illness well, but now I'm totally doubting anything the vet says. I will continue to treat them, but I'm so doubtful that I should be doing this. It seems to be harming them and my instinct is telling me to find another way. Still, I'm not the expert, so I will keep at it. :?
Well, many people feel finches are disposable. Especially Zebs since they are so inexpensive. We know they're not.
Totally agree with this statement, as I'm finding out with this whole situation. I know there isn't anyone that is going to care as much about my feathered kids as me, but those that choose to be a vet should show more concern in my opinion. It would be helpful to those of us who have to put our trust in them.

I appreciate the link and the reply. Thanks so much.
~Rischa & The Finchies

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Post by dfcauley » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:37 pm

Maybe it is time to find another vet?

I always go on my gut instinct. ....... Do you use the KD water cleanser?
I really think that it is a great thing to give your birds at least once a week. Not only does it clean the water, it helps the birds digestive system.
Donna

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Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:08 pm

Yes, a new vet is what I'm thinking, too. I don't have a lot of faith in her at this point. She is one of two in my immediate area, but I'm willing to drive to find a good one. The other avian vet near me says she only sees well birds. Sounds crazy, but that's what she said.

I have some KD Water Cleanser, but I haven't used it yet. I'll take your suggestion of giving it a try. Not in place of the med, of course, but just to start using it once a week like you suggest. Thanks. :)
~Rischa & The Finchies

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Post by B CAMP » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:31 pm

What area do you live maybe someone can recommend a vet
Bill

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Post by Finchy_Artist » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:41 pm

That would be great. If someone knows of a good vet in the Orlando or Ocala area I would be willing to travel to those areas. I live in between the two in a very rural town.
~Rischa & The Finchies

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