Life of an Egg Survey

[Ursula]

After all, we were given domain over all the animals of the earth

As long as we accept this anthropocentric belief we will never accept animals as anything more than property.

Fully agree, Mike!

[Domenic]

I agree with everything you've said in this post Candace.

[mike]

As far as thinking that 'humans' are the center of the universe... well I certainly don't think that. I do not believe anthropocentrically at all, I believe God is the center of the universe

One cannot argue logic with religion. Logic always loses.

[CandoAviary]

Religion IS man's logic... It is the way different individuals try to understand thier existance. There are many logical and illogical ways to this goal and everyone should be allowed thier beliefs. I do not think it is a loose/win situation .... just a free choice of beliefs.

Mike, I am not forcing my belief or choice on you. I would never attack or criticize you for whatever belief you may have .... so stop nagging on mine... Okay? Peace Dude Let's talk about finches and thier eggs .

[dfcauley]

Either the egg is fertile or not. Doesn't matter if it has been incubated.
This type of discussion can lead to lots of needless heated conversation. It is the same as with the life of a baby. There are many opinions and everyone thinks they are right.
As stated weather you are pro-life or pro-choice you will not change your mind.
Personally I toss eggs when I feel I need to and I do so without any guilt.
I am pro-life and believe that life begins at conception.

[cindy]

Candace, I would like you know that you topic was a dinner conversation yesterday. We went over to Orlando and joined my family for a nice Italian dinner. So over pasta and wine I asked my father the question "when does the life of an egg begin".

There is something you need to know first, both my father and husband have degrees from Rutgers and are scientist. My husband, the Entomologist specializes in mosquito borne diseases, their feeding cycles. My father is an immunologist, microbiologist, medical consultant. I was sitting inbetween them during dinner.

My father very simply stated that the life of an egg does not start until there is a heartbeat. He said that if the egg is fertile, the heart is formed and you will have a beat. If the egg is infetile, no heartbeak so the egg is not alive.

He further explained if a human, cat, dog embroy forms and is not able to form completely and a functioning heart can not be substained thus no heartbeat: it is aborted by the body and shed. In the case of an egg it is infertile.

I learned a long time ago crossing religion and science can and will create a heated debate. There are many theories to evolution, life, death and after life. Based on my background religion to me is very personal, it is what brings you comfort and solace, helps makes you who you are and gets you though your day. I know not to challenge therories of science and religion in a family of scientists at least not at the dinner table!

Let's just talk eggs and pass the bread sticks!

[mike]

My father very simply stated that the life of an egg does not start until there is a heartbeat. He said that if the egg is fertile, the heart is formed and you will have a beat. If the egg is infetile, no heartbeak so the egg is not alive.

He further explained if a human, cat, dog embroy forms and is not able to form completely and a functioning heart can not be substained thus no heartbeat: it is aborted by the body and shed. In the case of an egg it is infertile.

But is that what you believe?

It sounds like a nice legal definition of "life" but there is more to what constitutes "life" than a heartbeat. Microorganisms are also alive and none have hearts. Destroying an egg is destroying a potential life and that is the key. No one is to say whether that egg we tossed aside wouldn't have developed a heart. Is the implication that as long as we destroy it before it develops a heart that it is okay? I could extrapolate that to include any number of other reasons to destroy eggs or kill chicks.

No. To me life starts when the potential for a life begins. Sex cells (sperm, ova) can not develop into organisms but once they meet and the cell begins to multiply, you have potential for life. That to me is life.

Regarding the rest of your post, if the embryo cannot form a heart, it dies. The egg is no longer viable and thus, no longer fits into this debate.

My posts always come across as brash so please read at face value. I'm not being personal.

[cindy]

Mike...if you noticed I left my beliefs out of it. I did so during the meal also. I simply presented a question and was interested in what the response would be just as Candace did. I also simply posted what the response was, it was interesting to hear another twist on things.

Your point of view, my father's as well as my husband's all come from a personal and science perspective. My beliefs both from a science and religous aspect are different from both my father's and hubsband's and may very likely be different from yours.

You see Mike, this is the great thing about all of this, we all have our own take on things. I understand completely where all three of you are coming from, it does not mean I have to accept or reject it. It could also mean I may take a little from another's perspective and add it to mine.

As far as the issue of tossing eggs out, this is my own experience with it:

Back in the day.....which was a Wednesday!

I tried candling at one time by removing the eggs and checking them or by using a petite flashlight with a long wire neck to examine the eggs in the box. All of which was upsetting to the parents, some would not incubate after candling, others got very defensive when I came near the box and would destroy the chicks as sort of an act of defending them (one pair of lovebirds had to left completely alone until it was time for the babies to be pulled for hand rearing or they tossed or killed the chicks). I did very little to disturb them.

I let nature takes it's course once the eggs were laid. If there were eggs in the nest along with hatched chicks and it was well past the hatch dates plus extra days, I would then candle the eggs left to be sure and toss it if infertile.

To control population I removed or sealed the entrance to the nest box and supplied plenty of toys and things to keep them busy.

People "toss" eggs for various reasons, to control population, control the cost of having to many birds, overcrowding, not enough cages, making room for another species eggs to hatch...ultimately whatever they do is what works for them and their situations. I can't really give an honest opinion on tossing eggs that may be fertile beacause I have never had to do it.

I also don't judge because ultimately what I do in my home with my birds and what works for me is up to me. This time around with finches instead of hookbills, I may or may not change what I do.

I am open to all points of view and beliefs, it is what makes our world interesting. I can appreciate and respect other's points of view and sometimes their take on things may or may not give me another perspective on things.

Mike, I am not taking it personal. You just feel strongly about your belief in things.

Can you pass the bread sticks, please?

[Ursula]

I'm passing the breadsticks...

[cindy]

Thank you my dear...care for butter?

[mike]

Thank you my dear...care for butter?

Lactose-free margarine for me, please.

[cindy]

You got it Mike...lactose free for me to!

[CandoAviary]

Cindy wrote
"Candace, I would like you know that you topic was a dinner conversation yesterday. We went over to Orlando and joined my family for a nice Italian dinner. So over pasta and wine I asked my father the question "when does the life of an egg begin".

There is something you need to know first, both my father and husband have degrees from Rutgers and are scientist. My husband, the Entomologist specializes in mosquito borne diseases, their feeding cycles. My father is an immunologist, microbiologist, medical consultant. I was sitting inbetween them during dinner.

My father very simply stated that the life of an egg does not start until there is a heartbeat. He said that if the egg is fertile, the heart is formed and you will have a beat. If the egg is infetile, no heartbeak so the egg is not alive.

He further explained if a human, cat, dog embroy forms and is not able to form completely and a functioning heart can not be substained thus no heartbeat: it is aborted by the body and shed. In the case of an egg it is infertile."

Thank you Cindy, That was the best answer. I asked the question because I wasn't sure when the egg was 'alive' but that makes sense. Like if a dog could not develope a heart it would be aborted and therefore no life....makes sense to me. I never meant for people to take this like this was a comparison to a human being but when people started saying that they felt like they were the only ones that would answer honestly, that others must be afraid or that they didn't feel guilty of tossing. I interpreted that as they thought others would judge them? I saw that a simple question can be misconstrued. I guess I am the type to just put my answer out there and not worry weather others agree or not. I assume people ask my opinion because they are interested in what I think. Doesn't mean I am right, simply just what I think I don't get 'heated' , but I guess some do Oh well, thanks for a great answer and I guess you were curious like me to have asked it Plus I love to learn stuff that I don't know. I would love to sit at the table with scientist... I would worry them to death with all the questions I have The 'religous' part doesn't concern me. I am comfortable with my beliefs and hope others will find the peace in thiers. I guess I will be more careful what questions I ask in the future ..... so
What came first... the egg or the chick?

[dfcauley]

What came first... the egg or the chick?

The chick...... on a big boat!

[cindy]

Candace...the egg or the chicken? hmmmmm we may need a forum dedicated soley to that debate.

I need more breadsticks!!!!!! Pass the butter Ursula