my gouldian closes one eye

maru · Post by **maru** » Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:00 pm

Hi!

I am worried; I have a male gouldian, who has been with me for more than a year and always has been healthy, who now closes his eyes almost all the time. I don´t see any other worrying signs, except, of course, he is less active than usual.

He was in a cage with another male and a hen, and he was perfect. Some days ago I changed him to another cage, with another hen, to see if they could breed. I put a nest and some nesting material. As soon as he saw the hen, he began with the bowing and hopping ritual, but after that moment I have not seen him do that anymore, and they don´t seem to be interested in each other. But I have not seen them fight, either.

They only have teared newspaper to build the nest, I put them some grass, but they didn´t build anything, and I haven´t put them any more material. I don´t find nesting material easily here; I had bought a little box with small white thread, but I think it is the one that one of you told me was dangerous because they can get tangled, so I am not using it. I am wondering if the problem could be the stress for having almost no nesting material, or could he be sick? I don´t see more signs to have a clue of what is happening.

Post by **Sally** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:44 am

Is he puffy, with feathers fluffed up? Does he sit with his head tucked under his wing? Is he eating and drinking normally? Are his droppings normal?

As far as nesting material, Gouldians aren't always the best builders. Most breeders put some nesting material (grass, coco fiber, whatever) in the nestbox and then use their fist to mash it down and form a cup shape. Then put a few extra strands of nesting material just inside the box and see if they will use it.

maru · Post by **maru** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:58 pm

Thank you! Sorry I hadn´t posted, it seems to me everything else is ok, I don´t see him puffy or sad or anything, but he still closes one eye. I thought it was both eyes, but now I see he closes just one eye. He has it closed maybe most of the time. I don´t see anything wrong with this eye, but I suppose something is wrong. What should I do?

maru · Post by **maru** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi!

I posted a few days ago about my gouldian, who was closing his eyes. I didn´t write these last days because I saw him better, almost normal, I only see he now and then closed one eye, not both of them. Now he is doing this constantly. Obviously there´s something wrong with that eye, although it seems normal to me. He is eating well and he is not sad nor puffy.
I suppose I should take him to a vet; only that here in my city I don´t trust any vet when talking about birds, I don´t think they have experience.
Any advice?

Post by **Sally** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:23 am

Sorry you haven't gotten any help with this. I have no experience with eye problems, but maybe someone will chime in who has. I am going to merge your two threads, since they are both about the same problem.

maru · Post by **maru** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:17 pm

Thank you, Sallly. He seems better today.

I don´t know what was the problem, I will watch him during the day, but this morning I saw him with both eyes open, and eating ok.

maru · Post by **maru** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:38 pm

I haven´t received much answer for my problem... Well, I told you he was better, but I have seen him again with his eyes closed most of the time. I changed him to another cage, because I am afraid the hen will get sick if it is an infection or something, but when he opens his eyes they seem ok... I called to a vet and she gave me eye drops, that are for human use. I have only put him one drop in each eye, I should be doing this three times a day during the weekend and see what happens. The substances in the drops are nafazolina and hipromelosa (they´re in Spanish, I don´t know if the name in English is similar).

I am thinking what could be the problem. He was in a cage with the hen, and they had a wooden box nest. The nest was new, but before using it I put some permethrin in it (I read I should do that, to prevent bugs). They haven´t put a single egg, but the male sometimes got inside the nest... Maybe the permethrin hurt his eyes... do you think that´s possible?

L in Ontario · Post by **L in Ontario** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:45 pm

I'm not sure what permethrin is but I put a little Diatemacious Earth in the bottom of my nestboxes to prevent mites/bugs. But I cover the DE with a paper towel and then some nesting material so the birds never really come directly into contact with the DE.

It's possible he got a tiny particle of something in his eye (that's all I can think of) and hopefully the eye drops will help flush it out. Good luck.

cindy · Post by **cindy** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:21 pm

Permethrin is an insecticide and should not be used in nest boxes or on birds or their perches and never should it come in contact with their food. Permetrin is used in lawn fertlizer, mixed in insecticides such as wasp spray.

Depending on the concentration, even if diluted it can be very toxic to a little bird. I would remove the nest box, soak the water for 30 minutes to leach the chemical out of the wood, set in the sun to dry for the day then repeat the soak the next day for 30 minutes, rinse, dry completely in the sun. Make sure you take any removable pieces of the box off and dry outside in the sun for about 5 days.

If you sprayed the cage or perches do the same thing as you do to the box with soaking and drying.

It is possble the bird is having a reaction to the chemical. The vapors from the chemical can be affecting the bird as it sits in the enclosure of the box. It is petroleum based and since the inside of the box was sprayed the chemical can not break down like it would if it was used on grass and the sun can break the chemical down.

Was the box wet with the chemical when you hung it in the cage? Did you spray the box when it was in the cage? Was the bird in contact with any of the chemical when it was wet?

If you can let me know I will try to help you and your bird.

maru · Post by **maru** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:47 pm

Thank you!

First, I would like to tell you where did I read this and here also you can see the product I am using, and give me your opinion. The page is http://www.friskyfinches.com/may.htm

Now I am really worried, since one of my hens is laying on her eggs (the truth is that I am almost sure they are not fertile, but since I not know well how to distinguish them, I am afraid of taking them from her and killing a little bird). So I am waiting to see if something comes out, but she spends most of the time in her nest, in which I also put permethrin.

If you could read the page I told you and tell me your opinion, I would be grateful.

cindy · Post by **cindy** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:43 pm

the product that site recommends is poultry dust containing permethrin

The application of the product is 1 lb to every 100 birds (chicken, turkeys)

active Ingredient:

permethrin*
0.25%

other Ingredients 99.75%

Total
100%

*(3-phenoxyphenyl)methyl (+/-) cis/trans 3-(2,2-dichloroethenyl)-2,2-diemethylcyclopropanecarboxylate

(Cis/Trans ratio: Min. 35% (+/-) cis and max. 65% (+/-) trans.)

Keep Out Of Reach Of Children
Prozap Garden & Poultry Dust Caution
FIRST AID

IF ON SKIN OR CLOTHING: Take off contaminated clothing. Rinse skin immediately with plenty of water for 15 to 20 minutes. Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.

IF IN EYES: Hold eye open and rinse slowing and gently with water for 15 to 20 minutes. Remove contact lenses, if present, after the first 15 minutes, then continue rinsing eyes. Call a poison control center or doctor for treatment advice.

Have the product container or label with you when calling a poison control center or doctor or going for treatment. For emergency information contact: National Pesticide Information Center at 1-800-858-7378 between 6:30 AM and 4:30 PM Pacific Time. After 4:30 call your poison control center.

See below for further precautions and directions.

PRECAUTIONARY STATEMENTS

Hazards To Humans And Domestic Animals
Prozap Garden & Poultry Dust Caution
HUMANS: Harmful if absorbed through the skin. Causes moderate eye irritation. Avoid with eyes, skin or clothing. Wash hands before eating, drinking, chewing gum, using tobacco or using the toilet.

ANIMALS: Sensitivities may occur after using ANY pesticide product for pets. If signs of sensitivity occur, bathe your pet with mild soap and rinse with large amounts of water. If signs continue, consult a veterinarian immediately.It is also use to control pest on flowers and vegetables.

I personally would not use this around delicate finches. Their body mass is extremely small compared to a chicken. Can I recommend you use products only for finches. As far as leaving the eggs and female to sit in the box, I can't guarantee if they will hatch or the young will be ok. This is a known irritant. It may also be why your male is having difficulty with his eyes, they could be breathing the powder or fumes in while nesting.

Here is a site that may help you with products more suited for finches.

http://gouldian.com/features-health.mgi
http://www.redbirdproducts.com/

maru · Post by **maru** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:18 pm

Thank you for such a complete information...

I don´t know what to do about the hen in the nest...

In that site they say they use this product... Of course I won´t do it again, but it´s my first gouldian hen laying eggs... I will wait and see what happens. Anyway, I´ll try to be aware of her when she leaves the nest, and see if she is ok.

I´ll tell you what happens.

cindy · Post by **cindy** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:26 pm

please keep use posted. If her eggs go past the time they are to hatch I would remove the box, clean it well, wash down the cage and let your birds bathe. If you get chicks monitor them, if you see the are not thriving or pass away please post us. Maybe we can help you. Sometimes some of the sites mean well or use old ways and it is confusing as to what is the best thing to do. If you have trouble finding information on finch products write back.

Keep us posted and best wishes.

Post by **Sally** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:32 pm

First, are you using the exact product that was recommended on that site? If so, did you use the exact amount that was recommended? We do have to be careful with what we use around our finches and use the dilution that is stated on the directions.

I use Avian Insect Liquidator, which is a permethrin-based liquid. It is sold by Vetafarm, and it is to be diluted 1 part AIL to 20 parts water. At that strength, I have sprayed it on cages, perches, in nestboxes, and on the birds themselves, with never a problem. It is for mites, but it also kills other insects. In Texas, we have a problem with those palmetto bugs, which look like giant cockroaches, and this stuff kills them.

I really can't say if the permethrin is causing eye problems with that finch, but if you are in doubt, then I would remove the nestbox, wash and clean it really well, and start over.

maru · Post by **maru** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:43 pm

Yes, I am using the same product, I brought it to Mexico by plane, I even had a pretty bad time at he airport, because I had it in my handbag (I was afraid if I put it in my documented bag, they would take it out, because it is a white powder, you know, sometimes it can be suspectful). So I was really interested in bringing Mexico some good products for my birds, and I hope it isn´t doing them harm.

And I used it as it says:

After forming a good bowl shaped nest in the nest box we sprinkle a light dusting of poultry approved insecticide powder over the top of the newly formed grass nest. This will help keep any insects out of the nest box during the breeding season which would attack the baby birds. Also when the adult Gouldians go in the box to breed and add more grass to the pre built nest they get some of the poultry powder on themselves which will help kill any feather mites they might have that the Ivomec did not get, if any. Poultry dust is available in our shopping pages.

But I will keep you posted. I must tell you, I don´t know if it´s too soon to tell, but just after I put the drop of medicine to my bird´s eyes, I saw him better, that is, with his eyes open. I will continue with the treatment and see how he goes.

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