Zebra quanundrum (update Nov 17)

[L in Ontario]

Thanks Candace. I don't know any of the history of the white male parent of these babies. The hen I bred from a pair identical in colouring (white male & fawn hen). Here's a pic of the original parents who had 3 fawn female chicks and 1 normal male chick. I took one of the fawn chicks (which looks identical to her mother below) and paired her up with a different white male that looks identical to her father below). I don't know any of the history of the white males.

[L in Ontario]

...And one of the white/tan chicks fledged before I came downstairs this morning!!! I expect the other two will be out before I get back home tonight!

[cindy]

Liz,

They are very pretty. The all white is stunning, the tan is so sweet, it reminds me of when you mix cinnamon with sugar.

So cute, now seeing your pictures I am anxious to see the chicks from the zebra pair (Rudy and Izzy) JohnBoy sent me. The male is a cinnamon back. They should (if fertile) hatch early December...hope they look as beautiful as your chicks do!!!!

[CandoAviary]

Liz,
I would bet that the white males background has some FF or silver isabel. It will be interesting to see them get their adult colors.
Below are some pictures of a couple of chicks with simular markings and then how they looked in adult feather. All the chicks are not from the same clutch that I am feeding.



And as adults... silver isabel color and pattern male and female





These chicks showed no silver as young but gradually it appeared.
With out the abillity to express black pigments this pattern/color is referred to as phaeo.

[CandoAviary]

[quote="cindy"]Liz,


So cute, now seeing your pictures I am anxious to see the chicks from the zebra pair (Rudy and Izzy) JohnBoy sent me. The male is a cinnamon back.

Cindy,
You through me with that old school term for your zebras.... took me back a few years Cinnoman is conected to yellow base birds, so that may cause some new zebra people some confusion. Us oldtime breeders remeber that term though


Helpful site on the Fawn zebra:
"The Fawn used to be known as 'Cinnamon', but that term is no longer used. The name Cinnamon should be applied to yellow ground birds like the Canary and Fawn to white ground birds like the Zebra."
http://www.efinch.com/species/fawnzeb.htm

[L in Ontario]

Helpful site on the Fawn zebra:
"The Fawn used to be known as 'Cinnamon', but that term is no longer used. The name Cinnamon should be applied to yellow ground birds like the Canary and Fawn to white ground birds like the Zebra."
http://www.efinch.com/species/fawnzeb.htm

I don't understand that - are they saying that white Zebra finches should be termed 'Fawn'? Then what are the all-over-tan (like the hen above) Zebras called?

[CandoAviary]

No, they say that you go by the base color of the birds. All zebras base colors are white. Other color are built on this. So fawn is a term applied that describes the apperance of tan on white.
Where as Cinnoman is for yellow base birds. Like a wild color budgie for example. when tan is applied to that color(yellow) you get a different tan color referred to as cinnoman. they are both a tan color but a different shade. So in all species of yellow based birds or lutino producing birds once the tan is applied it is then cinnoman.

White base birds such as the Zebra finch cannot produce a lutino bird. there is no luetin color found in this species that produces any yellow. So they can only be fawn.
Many years ago in the early days of breeding lutino/yellow budgies there were no cinnomans yet so many zebra people coined the term cinnoman to descibe the shade of tan on back of there zebras. Once budgies, cockatiels and many other species were bred for new color mutations then it became apparant the incorrect term for the zebra and most breeders accepted the standard as Fawn. Same bird the cinnoman zeb and the fawn zeb.... though cinnoman always should induce an image of a yellow base bird...which the zebra is not.

[Nagdabit]

Very pretty chicks. They look like isabel. There are many mutations with the isabel. Florida Fancy being one of them.

Here's where I get totally confused. The whole Florida Fancy / Isabel thing. I was under the impression that Isabel was an European mutation and that the Florida Fancy was American. Single Factor Florida Fancy birds are sometimes referred to as Florida Silvers and Silver Isabel. Roy Beckham covered this whole confusing mess on efinch. http://www.efinch.com/species/ffxisabelzeb.htm

Also Candace, when you spoke of phaeo on a later post where you referring to the process of repressed pigments or of the mutation itself? Cause Roy describes Phaeos as a cross between Florida Fancy and Black Breast. The black pigment not only is repressed but overtaken by the orange as it extends beyond the normal range of the cheek patches and breast bar, sometimes encompassing the entire lower half of the bird. Phaeos will generally keep the cool orange lacing that can be seen on Liz's fledglings, whereas on Florida Silvers it usually molts out. http://www.efinch.com/species/ffzeb.htm

Still trying to understand this whole FF / Isabel mess, so if I'm incorrect in my understanding please enlighten me.

[CandoAviary]

Rory,
You and me both. I think it really all depends who you are reading from. I too thought FF and isabel was the same bird..I even thought the FF was bred in Florida I have been told that the isabel is a pattern... pearling, lacing .. and that the FF was a result of pairing an isabel bird with ??? I forget.
The phaeo are had by crossing BlackFace.BlackBreast, with either a FF or a isabel marked bird. And yes, black pigment is repressed so the areas become orange. A really GOOD phaeo will have a lot of orange. I had a line a while back (9 years maybe) that had beautiful rust collored markings that started in the low cheek patch area, coninued over top the head and down the other side. It also covered the back of the head. It looked like he had the hood of a sweatshirt on. It retained all the patteren in a rusty tan throughout the feathers. It was a pretty bird but was not the desired orange tint....more rust brown. I paired one of my black face with a female FF this summer and got 1 black face male and another male that can only hop and fly a few feet and then lands on his back. He can roll back over on his feet and has the run of the outdoor viary. It is a condition that happens sometimes. I think that it is Ray that has one like this that he named 'Stupid"
I call mine Weebles and he is very sweet. The bend in his wings (elbow) is located up high to his back, causing long or upward flight impossible. The 4 toes are also facing forward more like a back bear foot. so they hop like young chickens. Does not perch on a stick at all. Needles to say....won't pair those again. It has been so long since I seriously bred zebras that I am sure some of the stuff has changed some more.
I have been so preoccupied with the gouldians that the zebras have been put to aviary. Maybe I will dabble some this winter.....
Have you ever crossed your FF with BF BB?

[JohnBoy]

So what do they call the zebra with the light rufous colored back? We've always called them Cinnamon.

[Nagdabit]

Thanks Candace, good to know I'm not the only one confused. We purchased two "partial" male phaeos (along with their sister) from a fellow forum member earlier in the year. We were trying to buy hens cause we really didn't need any more males, but there was some confusion on the coloring (long story) Our flock has also produced a double factor Florida Fancy and a whole pile of single factors. Our only black cheek died, but we might have some that are split, we'll have to find an actual black cheek to pair them with to know for sure.

Unfortunately with the bout of sickness that we've had with our hens, we just haven't been able to put any pairs together yet. Trying to wait until we can do everything at once, but as soon as one hen is nursed back to health another develops a problem. (or dies ) We've lost two of our purchased hens and another has been incapacitated so once again we are on the hunt for more hens. (Any chance you're heading north soon? )

Our two normal gray single factor FF boys have produced some interesting birds for us. Everything from the Florida Silver single factors (just like in your pics) to some cool Fawn CCFW hens. Very anxious to get the double factor FF and Phaeo boys some hens to see what they produce. Plus the patriarch of them all, our dilute FF / CFW male (Frost) is without a honey right now. He's always been an interesting case study. His offspring have varied depending on who he's been paired with. Planning on giving him the FF / Phaeo hen, that should be interesting to see.

One additional side note. One of the Yahoo genetic experts went on a rant a little while ago because he doesn't consider Phaeo a separate mutation onto itself. Rather a combination of two others, Black Face or Black Breast and Florida Fancy. Just something else to thoroughly confuse us ignorant folk.

Sorry Liz, seems like we got off track again. Please keep us updated (photos) on your babies. Curious to see what they end up as. I'm guessing there's some Florida Silvers (single factors) in there somewhere.

[JohnBoy]

OK, I understand that it is now called a fawn and no longer called cinnamon. But I don't understand why. I never would have considered rufous or red-brown to be labeled a fawn color. The definition of fawn is light yellowish brown.

[cindy]

On this site http://www.finchniche.com/f-zmutation.mgi they describe the color mutation as as colored cinnamon/brown. I merely said "The male is a cinnamon back" and that is true, his back is colored cinnamon/brown. I really don't care about the mutations, to me he is an attractive bird.

People still run ads for zebras that are a cinnamon mutation, it is all how you were taught.

Also according to http://www.efinch.com/species/fawnzeb the picture of a pair of fawns look like this. My male does not look this light or anything like this.

[Nagdabit]

My male does not look this light or anything like this.

Then it isn't a fawn. We have some normal grays with a reddish brown cast on their back. I assume this is what you mean by cinnamon backed? Never heard them referred to by a different distinction before. Just normal gray.

[cindy]

This is the male John gave me. He came from John's breeding stock.

Under the right light his back is really very pretty. He is one of my favorite birds. My daughter calls him Patches.