Three Juvenille Gouldians and a Novice Bird Keeper!!!

Tips for successful breeding and troubleshooting breeding problems.
bill2468
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Post by bill2468 » Wed May 24, 2006 10:47 pm

Sounds good but.........
Most (if not all Finches in captivity) have lost a good deal if not all of their original wild roots. They are the great great grand children of birds raised in cages or at best flight aviary cages.

18"x18"x30"=9720 sq. inches
a finch is about 1.5"x2"x3"=9sq. inches
9720divided by 9=1080 time the size of the birds body to live ine

How would this relate to:
a person 5'x1'x1'=5sq. feet
a room 8'x10'x8'=640sq. ft.
640 divided by 5=120 time our body space to live in.

That Finch is living in Trump Tower !

BiLL
:wink:

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Hilary
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Post by Hilary » Wed May 24, 2006 11:42 pm

Actually quite a few species are wild-caught and imported (for now), so I do have a number of birds who I hope don't remember what it was like to live outside of a cage!

As you said, about 80% agree with what the good folks in this forum have suggested. Many breeders keep their birds in smaller cages while breeding, then move them back out into larger quarters during their rest periods.

Ultimately it's up to you. I stood in line behind a lady in Petco the other day who was buying two female hamsters for her sons and a carrying cage (without a wheel) as the permanent home for the two of them. Was the cage larger than the space each hamster takes up? Yes. Will they probably kill each other or just die from stress in the next 6 months? Probably. You may luck out and get birds who all get along in close quarters, and I hope so. You've put a lot of thought into the decision to get finches, and I wish you the best of luck with them.

That's my two cents!

Hilary

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Crystal
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Post by Crystal » Thu May 25, 2006 3:56 am

The varieties that are not wild caught (i.e. gouldians) may be inbred and a little more physically "dull" than their wild cousins (especially in their ability to maintain a robust immune system), however they have not lost their "original wild roots" in the sense you seem to be referring to. They are still able to function as birds, and have the same desires to maintain a territory, fly, breed, seek food, etc.

Which is to say they are captive, but they are not truly domestic. Zebras and society finches are the closest examples of nearly-domestic species, because they will breed like rats in the face of stressors which would be too much for normal birds to feel comfortable with. However, zebras still fight for space, nesting and food resources, and still require adequate space to fly in order to get sufficient exercise. Zebras (among other species) kept in too small a cage WILL fight, pluck, and even murder their cage mates. They WILL become obese if not given adequate flight space, and they won't ever shed enough of their "original wild roots" to no longer require personal space or to give up defending their nest/territory/food resources, etc.

Your analogy has several flaws. People and birds are too dissimilar to say "if a person can live in a room which is [x] many times bigger than his body, a finch should be comfortable living in a space of proportionate dimensions." Not to mention that no person I know truly lives (i.e. never leaves) his or her 10x8x8 room. The few people I've heard of on the news that don't ever leave their living room are too obese to fit through the door frame of their home and are often so unhealthy that it is a wonder they are still alive at all. The vast majority of people are able to roam out of their "room" to get exercise and to stimulate their mind. People kept in small spaces for extended periods of time become very unhappy and stressed, which has negative effects on mental and physical health and human interrelationships among other things.

Most birds are not even given the option of leaving their living quarters to roam about larger spaces. Letting finches out of their cage to fly free in your home can be hazardous and risky and should not be attempted unless you have "bird proofed" your home...and even then I would personally avoid it.

Birds forced to live in too small of spaces or without adequate mental stimulus or ability to exercise also become stressed. Stress leads to health problems and abbarrant behavior. Stressed birds will mutilate themselves and/or take their stress out on cage mates. They can and will kill each other. Some species are more likely to get along than others, but you are talking about keeping zebra finches which are notorious for fighting in the conditions you are talking about providing for your birds. Even spice finches will defend their favorite perch, and although gouldians and spice finches tend to be pretty "laid back" (relatively), they will hiss at and chase other birds which encroach on their personal space.

This problem only becomes worse if you try to breed the birds, because now not only do the pairs have their personal space to defend, but a nest and resources to raise babies as well. They will become even more aggressive and stressed when you enter a nest into the equation, and even more likely to fight/pluck/injure.

30"x18"x18" is barely adequate for a single pair's permanent living quarters, and is more appropriate for breeding a single pair (a temporary living condition). Once the pair has weaned young in the cage, the young will need to be removed or the parents will go after them, too. If you are planning on breeding, you had better plan on having lots of cages, or one really huge cage. The best (most bird friendly) set ups have 30x18x18(ish) or larger sized breeding cages, and large flights/aviaries for holding non breeding birds.

If you want 2-3 pairs of finches, you either need to have one 30x18x18 cage per pair, or you need to buy/build an enclosure which is big enough to provide all of the birds you plan on keeping with enough space to maintain a peaceful environment.

If your goal is to photograph the birds and you want adequate numbers of birds to take pictures of in a "pretty setting," build a photobox and transfer the birds into the box to take pictures (and then back out of the box when you are done). OR build a well-planted aviary/large flight cage which is big enough to hold all your pairs, and photograph them in that enclosure.

The needs of the birds need to come first if you are going to be a responsible pet owner. If you do not have enough space to adequately care for 3 pairs, do not purchase 3 pairs, and don't try to breed your 1 pair.

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JeannetteD
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Post by JeannetteD » Thu May 25, 2006 12:46 pm

Hi Bill!

I know the cage size is not etched in stone, but I can guarantee you, that putting more than a couple birds, or different species, in a cage that size will cause problems. Fights over food and water stations. Fights over the highest perch because everyone wants to sit in the highest spot. Fights over nesting material (if there is any).. and PLUCKING.. once you get into that problem, that's a whole new world because it's not something that easy to stop.

Once a bird is plucked, it's like all the other birds recognize it is 'weaker'.. and they like to pick on the weaker birds.

Start slow, but if you're serious about having alot of birds, then I would recommend you save your money on the dozens of cages that you will eventually buy and just make an aviary NOW. LOL

My excuse for not having an aviary was 'no money'.. but if you tally up all the money i've spent on the 12 cages I have.. I could have built a 800$ aviary by now...

Either way, whatever you choose, I think if you put more than 2 in a cage that size, you're asking for trouble.

Just my 1 1/2 cents worth. (deflation, dontcha know)

Jeannette

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tammieb
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Post by tammieb » Thu May 25, 2006 6:52 pm

You've been given very good advice Bill. Please think long and hard before cramming 3+ birds and their accessories in a 18x18x30 cage.
TammieB.

Use the talents you possess - for the woods would be a very silent place if no birds sang except for the best. ~Henry Van Dyke~

Carmen
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Post by Carmen » Fri May 26, 2006 9:47 am

I totally agree with the 30x18x18 cage issue.
Probably someone mentioned this already somewhere, but I will say it once more: a bird must have the opportunity to fly from the one side of the cage to the other, not to hop!
Every bird has his own space where he wants to sit. Pushy species won't allow others in that personal space.
So when you put more than two birds in the cage there will be one (or maybe even two) that can not sit anywhere.
You get also problems like birds that can't eat because others aren't allowing that, all that sort of things.
I don't think the birds are happy with that, and you also, when one get's ill.

But I can understand why you are thinking it's OK to put more than two in the cage with that size. In specific circumstances it ís possible, I think. But only when you keep one species that isn't aggressive at all. From much species is said that they aren't aggressive, but you will see when it's breeding time they will defend their nest and keep other birds away by picking and chasing.

For example: Owl Finches. I have had them in an outdoor aviary with other birds, enough room for all. They had a nest in the roost place, from 40x30x60 and any other bird shouldn't enter that space...

Just an example of how you can mistake in birds! So think about it and if you really want more than two birds in that cage take a 'real' non aggressive species, like the goldbreast or yellow bellies.

I speak only from my own experience, maybe there are more species that peacefully breed in colony.
Carmen

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