Be careful transitioning to an austerity diet

[ac12]

I just lost my YB gouldian hen today.
She appeared fine then just fell backwards off the perch, flapped a few times, and was gone.

I was transitioning her to an austerity diet to trigger her to molt. I "thought" I had her transitioned to the austerity diet. She ate the austerity mix, but apparently not enough of it to keep her alive and she starved herself to death. It appears to me that she was being STUBBORN and was holding out waiting for her old food to reappear.

I am not saying that the austerity diet is BAD, you just have to REALLY pay attention to the bird when you transition to it.
- If the bird has not been on an austerity diet (mine was not), the food might be strange to it. In which case, it would be like introducing the bird to new food. It could take a while to SAFELY get it to start eating the new food. And ENOUGH of the new food to stay alive.
- Transition the bird over at least a week (maybe more), so it gets used to the new food. Problem here is the bird might just keep eating the old food and ignore the new food.
- WATCH the seed dish/tray and pay attention to what IS eaten and what is NOT eaten. And how much is eaten. If they only eat one of the seeds, they may not be enough of that seed to keep it going and you will have to refill to keep an adequate amount of that seed for the bird.

[lovemyfinch]

So sorry to hear about this Gary.

[MLaRue]

I'm sorry you lost her Gary what food were you feeding her as the austerity diet?

[ac12]

It was the Birds R Us Austere Diet.
On the Fabulous Finches site Bill Van Patten mentions
"...diet consisting of a blend of White and Yellow millet (or a similar low fat mix such as Rye Grass and Japanese Millet) ..."
So I think the seeds in the Birds R Us Austere Diet is Rye Grass and Japanese Millet. Both of which are foreign to my finches, so it was a completely new diet.

But as I mentioned, this particular hen was a stubborn eater. It did not like new food. I think it was "foraging" in the seed tray looking for its OLD food, and that made me think that it was eating more of the new food that it actually was. I checked the seeds 2x a day, to make sure that neither of the seeds in the austerity mix was gone, and if it was gone or low I added more of the mix.

The seeds he mentions (white and yellow millet) are much more common in US seed mixes. So that would probably have been a better option, as the birds would be familiar with them. I have since picked up a couple pounds of white and red millet to add to the Birds R Us Austere Diet, so the mix would be easier to transition birds to. I have the millet in the freezer right now to kill anything in them, before I feed it to the finches tomorrow.

[dfcauley]

So sorry to hear of this. I don't usually say never.... but I think I will "never" switch over to this diet.

I know that Bill is very knowledgeable in goudians, but I personally do not think I could do this.

I would be curious....poohbear..... have you ever tried this?
I know you have bred gouldians for a long time.

[L in Ontario]

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your YB hen, Gary.

I never have and won't put my birds on the austerity diet either. JMO

[lovemyfinch]

I haven't, and wasn't planning on switching over to this diet. Now I am fairly sure that I won't.

I might have just been lucky, but my pair that had their 3 clutches, all I did was remove the nest after the babies fledged...and they are now both molting and still in the aviary together. I don't know why but if it's not broke.......

[nixity]

Hey Gary.. I thought of a couple things after you told me of your hen's passing..

Just curious, after you hen passed - did you do a once over on her?
Was her keel protruding?
Was she strictly on the BRU austere when she died or were you still blending in her old food? When had you seen her eat last?

Was she the only bird in the cage or was there another bird in with her?

I feel like most of my weaned juveniles who have died usually die of starvation because they fail to wean properly.
I see them eating but I don't think they eat enough to sustain themselves and they eventually waste away, but it's never a sudden drop off the perch death, it's always been a really slow painful to watch death :\

[Sally]

So sorry you lost your hen, Gary. It is hard to tell if they are eating enough, unless you catch them up to check that breastbone. I have noticed with the really senior birds that I have lost lately, that they became very thin. Don't know if they just lost the ability to utilize the seed they were eating, or if they just didn't eat enough.

[dfcauley]

Hey Gary..
I feel like most of my weaned juveniles who have died usually die of starvation because they fail to wean properly.
I see them eating but I don't think they eat enough to sustain themselves and they eventually waste away, but it's never a sudden drop off the perch death, it's always been a really slow painful to watch death :\

Gosh.... I had no idea that a bird would actually starve to death when there was plenty of food available.

I guess this is for sure an advantage of keeping the babies with the parents as long as possible . All my juvies are still with their parents and some have even completely colored up already. I would hate the thought that one actually starved.....

[MLaRue]

Hey Gary.. I thought of a couple things after you told me of your hen's passing..

Just curious, after you hen passed - did you do a once over on her?
Was her keel protruding?
Was she strictly on the BRU austere when she died or were you still blending in her old food? When had you seen her eat last?

Was she the only bird in the cage or was there another bird in with her?

I feel like most of my weaned juveniles who have died usually die of starvation because they fail to wean properly.
I see them eating but I don't think they eat enough to sustain themselves and they eventually waste away, but it's never a sudden drop off the perch death, it's always been a really slow painful to watch death :\

I agree and think it may have been something else. Most birds will hold out for their favorite food for a short time but I've never seen them have food in front of them and starve themselves.

I asked what diet or seed you were using because if it was the BRU seed it still has a few seeds the birds "usually" really like even if they don't like the Rye seed.

I've had birds just flip off the perch too and die instantly (young birds and older) the last one was a few years ago and I was feeding and watering all the cages - I just looked at a favorite male of mine - talked to him and everything - came back with the water bottle not 10 seconds later and he was dead on the floor! If I hadn't just made eye contact with him I might have thought I was loosing my mind. The bird had a buffet of food available to him and he was or seemed perfectly healthy. I just let it go as a bird heart attack. Because his body was not lean and or wasted.

I'm sorry you lost her Gary.

[nixity]

Gosh.... I had no idea that a bird would actually starve to death when there was plenty of food available.

I guess this is for sure an advantage of keeping the babies with the parents as long as possible . All my juvies are still with their parents and some have even completely colored up already. I would hate the thought that one actually starved.....

It hasn't mattered for me keeping the babies longer, because for me the issue has always been the babies literally just fail to wean, and once I see the signs, I've never been able to do anything to help them. I've tried supplementing, but at this point they are so resistant to me it's a wash because they refuse the syringe.
I've tried treating them in case its an infection or digestion issue, nothing has ever worked and I've come to the (perhaps harsh) conclusion that if they can't make it alongside their brothers and sisters who are doing just fine, they probably aren't meant to

With my pastel baby, he would harass Gadget incessantly begging, chasing him around, 3 weeks after fledging, when the others were not begging any more. Because the others weren't begging, the parents literally refused to feed, and since he refused to eat, he just slowly wasted away and died in my hands before I even weaned the others.
So in that case he was still with his parents when he died..
I don't know why it happens to some and not others, and I feel like I've been plagued lately with this happening more than it ever has before.
The only connection I can see is that in the cases I've had it happen this year, each time the pair has started a new clutch before the babies fledge and end up investing more energy in the new clutch instead of their existing babies.
It's just that some babies suffer more than others I guess :\ The Pastel couldn't handle it, but the other 5 were just fine.

[nixity]

Sorry to get off topic, Gary :\

Along the same lines as Misty I had this happen with Porkchop, a hand fed from Bella and Mystic who died last year shortly before Christmas.
She was fine one minute, and the next she was flopping around on the cage and then died seconds later as I was holding her freaking out trying to figure out what was wrong with her.

She was the largest and seemingly healthiest of the bunch.. I can't explain it.. when I told Lainey she suggested it was likely an internal problem like a stroke or heart attack or other failure of some kind.
I think we sometimes forget birds can suffer from things like this, too :\
My first thought was a toxic issue I didn't even consider something "natural" like heart failure..

On a similar note, I wonder if it could have been related to the austere diet by virtue of some other complication like a digestion system problem or something else, which may have also been linked with why she was such a picky eater :\

[ac12]

LMF
In your case, because your birds begin to molt themselves, you don't need the austerity diet to trigger the molt like I was doing.

Tiffany
- I was too upset and did not think of inspecting her. Even if I did, I did not know what to look for.
- I was at the end of transitioning her to the BRU austere diet, so it was pretty much all BRU austere diet.
- I saw her eating in the morning, when I refilled the seed dish. I did not check the cage till early afternoon when I saw her die. Almost like she was waiting for me before she died.
- Maybe the diet change was part of the problem, as she was eating a variety of food (I think); seeds, pellets, veggies and egg before I started transitioning her to the austere diet. She started eat more variety after I put her in with the 3 hens who are not picky eaters, and I think they taught her to eat more variety. Maybe her system was so used to something in her normal diet that when it was missing in the austere diet, it created another health problem.
- She was the only bird in that cage. I did not have any other F gouldian to molt. She could hear the other gouldians but not see them. Was she lonely?
I think w/o other birds to teach her to eat the new food (the austere diet), she reverted back to her stubborn "I want MY food" eating. So even with the food there, she held out for her old familiar food.

DF
The problem with her is that she was a STUBBORN eater. For example, she would only eat the white millet out of the goudian seed mix and not touch the egg/veggi mix, even though her mate ate it. And she would pick out "something" from the miracle meal mix (was not able to figure out what she was picking out). So I have seen her not eat other food that her mate would dive in and eat.

I think a good technique for the fledgling is to get them to eat a variety of food early, so they are not picky eaters. Soon after they fledge, I put a shallow dish in the cage with different foods; soaked seeds, miracle meal, dry egg food, pellets and soft veggies. The chick being curious watches the parents eat from the dish, it then pokes at the food and gradually starts trying the different food. I started doing this so the chicks do not develop a taste for "ONLY seeds" which my first clutch of zebra chicks did. Unlike their late mother, her 2 chicks will eat anything I put into the cage.

Having said this, I had one clutch of zebra chicks avoid the food dish for almost 2 weeks after they fledged. They just begged their parents to feed them...and their parents did. I was wondering if they would ever learn to eat on their own.

[fabulousfinch]

Hi Gary,

I thought I would post my reply here also. Misty and Tiffany have offered a lot of good thoughts also, so will leave my post as a repeat for this thread...

I'm certain your are right, Gary. We had a customer do a cold turkey conversion from her commercial seed mix to Goldenfeast Australian Blend and she lost a blue back within several days. A number of years ago, I had to switch to a different commercial seed mix when they were out of the one I used, and the new mix was fruit scented. I lost several birds within a few days. I had another customer tell me she lost several birds when she switched to a seed blend that contained anise. Birds don't like a cold turkey change

All of the Birds R Us seed blends contain the seeds in the Austerity Blend, so the birds become familiar with them. But I would never recommend using it cold turkey following a mix such as Kaytee. Mike favors the Rye and Jap seed blend, but your birds first have to recognize the seeds as food. White and yellow millet are a good second option.

The Birds R US products are a definite system of products, and used ad-hoc I don't know how they would work. But it definitely sounds like you fell into a trap with the Austerity Blend.

Another point that Mike and I have talked about a lot, is the fact that his diet, and breeding Gouldians in general is for healthy stock. If you have a bird(s) with marginal or suspect health, then breeding them is not a good idea. In fact, Mike's dietary system will increase fertililty, and you need good healthy stock to handle the 15 to 18 juveniles they will produce over the course of a breeding season.

Regarding the Austerity period specifically, the comment I remember most from Mike is "If your birds are otherwise healthy, they will be fine." The back side of that comment would be "If your birds are not completely healthy, they will not be fine." I have found both perspectives to be very true.

Again, I'm sorry about your loss

Bill